Jump from homebrew to a brewery

[Mastoras007]

I have read, but also i have already tested to my home brews that the second - 3rd -4th generation of yeast produce better beer than first.
I have tested, the 3rd batch was really good and clean

 

[J A]

If I'm calculating correctly, your batches would require a 500 gram brick of yeast per batch of 5 hectoliters. I believe you mentioned that you'd be selling 20 liter kegs. Even if you're paying $100 per brick, your getting 25 kegs per brick and that's $4. If you manage to get 3 generations without trouble, you'd save $2.6 per keg. Yes, that adds up over time but the percentage of the total sale is very small.
Be careful that you don't place too much value on a small savings at the expense of much more work and worry by re-using yeast. One failed batch would cost far more than many bricks of yeast.

 

[Craigerrr]

Another important lesson:
if the beer is not good or up to your standard, dump it down the drain. You only get 1 chance to make a first impression on customers. It hurts to dump beer, but it is ALOT cheaper then loosing customers to bad beer.

I have followed this thread loosely, and haven't contributed as I don’thave anything useful to add being a lowly homebrewer.
This however is the best bit of advice I have seen here to date.
If you are going to go Pro, you really need to be confident that you have great product, and a market that will consume it.
Of course there is a lot more to it than that, but without those two factors, you will be out of business pretty damn quick.
Not to be discouraging of course, I wish you the best.

 

[Bigbre04]

If I'm calculating correctly, your batches would require a 500 gram brick of yeast per batch of 5 hectoliters. I believe you mentioned that you'd be selling 20 liter kegs. Even if you're paying $100 per brick, your getting 25 kegs per brick and that's $4. If you manage to get 3 generations without trouble, you'd save $2.6 per keg. Yes, that adds up over time but the percentage of the total sale is very small.
Be careful that you don't place too much value on a small savings at the expense of much more work and worry by re-using yeast. One failed batch would cost far more than many bricks of yeast.

This is essentially what i was working with. plus getting the Apex for so cheap.

If i was held up even once and my schedule suffered or my fermentations were sluggish or stuck. The cost savings of a year's worth of repitching goes right away. not to mention the margin difference between direct sales vs Distribution being crazy means that i have a lot more freedom in my spending.

Time is your most valuable asset. I am pissed that i didnt get to work until close to noon today because my day doesnt start until i get here.

Also pissed that we have drama and the dude who was supposed to dryhop for me had some issues and never mentioned it. so now i have a pale ale where i was supposed to have an IPA....fucks my schedule up since i need to rebrew the beer and i am out of Sabro Cryo.

I have followed this thread loosely, and haven't contributed as I don’thave anything useful to add being a lowly homebrewer.
This however is the best bit of advice I have seen here to date.
If you are going to go Pro, you really need to be confident that you have great product, and a market that will consume it.
Of course there is a lot more to it than that, but without those two factors, you will be out of business pretty damn quick.
Not to be discouraging of course, I wish you the best.

lol business experience is a huge factor here. Pro brewing is a mix of business and pleasure. I have dumped 1 batch since we opened, because Voss turned the Honey brown into a brown mead and i dont have space to store it for 6+ months... that doesnt mean that everything is perfect, but i know how to pivot and keep fruit on hand lol.

 

[Bigbre04]

I have read, but also i have already tested to my home brews that the second - 3rd -4th generation of yeast produce better beer than first.
I have tested, the 3rd batch was really good and clean

This is accurate, but the costs involved vs the potential savings dont make sense. Knowing that that beer will finish exactly when you expect it and will have the characteristics you expect. Makes planning your brews and sales a whole lot easier.

I know that my lager will take between 8-10 days, my IPAs will take 7 days, my ales are generally 5 days. this allows me to know when i need to brew what.

 

[Mastoras007]

I know that my lager will take between 8-10 days, my IPAs will take 7 days, my ales are generally 5 days. this allows me to know when i need to brew what.

this is crazy fast!

 

[Bigbre04]

this is crazy fast!

turn and burn! i have to brew to demand and i dont have space to stock extra.

Temp control, high pitchrate, good nutrients, and O2!

 

[Mastoras007]

5 days ale, whats the timeline? 2 days low tempreture, 2 days high tempreture and 1 day cold crash + carbonate? or you ferment directly high and just cold crash?
i was thinging about that, acording to palmers book , during the growth phase fist 2-3 days of fermentathion the because of growth yeast can greate fermentation byproducts, on this phace must ferment as low as posible to limit those,
So if i over pitch, this growth phace is not so big as result i can ferment higher = faster? is this logic corect?
and if i can ferment higher conditioning hapening same time with fermentathion
i'm not sure if I'm talking nonsense, I'm just combining things I've read but haven't tried.

 

[Bigbre04]

5 days ale, whats the timeline? 2 days low tempreture, 2 days high tempreture and 1 day cold crash + carbonate? or you ferment directly high and just cold crash?
i was thinging about that, acording to palmers book , during the growth phase fist 2-3 days of fermentathion the because of growth yeast can greate fermentation byproducts, on this phace must ferment as low as posible to limit those,
So if i over pitch, this growth phace is not so big as result i can ferment higher = faster? is this logic corect?
and if i can ferment higher conditioning hapening same time with fermentathion
i'm not sure if I'm talking nonsense, I'm just combining things I've read but haven't tried.

4 days @ 68f or until the grav repeats or it doesnt build pressure over the day. then crash overnight. carb and package on the same day.

I dont do any fining/filtering/or transfers. fermenter to keg. the beer is generally clear enough. it can settle to bright clarity in the keg.

I have a unique situation.

all good. yes that is generally accurate, but with a big pitch/good nutrients/enough o2 and temp control it is fast. also and importantly it stays in house so i have complete control of it from putting it on tap to the last keg.

 

[Mastoras007]

Actually I'm missing a part, you use voss kveik this yeast is different than us-05 i use.
Voss kveik there is not selling here, only 11g and is expensive
In Europe i found 500g but cost 120€+ shipping
Which do you use for your lagers?

 

[J A]

5 days ale, whats the timeline? 2 days low tempreture, 2 days high tempreture and 1 day cold crash + carbonate? or you ferment directly high and just cold crash?
i was thinging about that, acording to palmers book , during the growth phase fist 2-3 days of fermentathion the because of growth yeast can greate fermentation byproducts, on this phace must ferment as low as posible to limit those,
So if i over pitch, this growth phace is not so big as result i can ferment higher = faster? is this logic corect?
and if i can ferment higher conditioning hapening same time with fermentathion
i'm not sure if I'm talking nonsense, I'm just combining things I've read but haven't tried.

Most ale yeasts are very comfortable and ferment very cleanly in a range of 65F to 69F including US-05.Pitching at up to 72F and dropping to 67 is a reasonable approach for almost any ale yeast. Hitting 68F, pitching and holding is probably very common practice. Big fermenters can produce a lot of exothermic heat so holding a little lower than the desired temp isn't a bad idea, depending on cooling efficiency. Even with a homebrew-size pitch, American and English ale yeasts can ferment very quickly and have great flavor without lower temperature. I don't think you'd ever have problems with off flavors until you reach 70F plus in temperature for the earliest stages
Some lager yeasts might really do better with a few days in the low end of the their temperature range but most will do very nicely pitched at around 58F and will ferment quickly through about 60% or 70% of attenuation and can be raised to about 65For slightly warmer with a little pressure for final attenuation.

 

[Mastoras007]

Most ale yeasts are very comfortable and ferment very cleanly in a range of 65F to 69F including US-05.Pitching at up to 72F and dropping to 67 is a reasonable approach for almost any ale yeast. Hitting 68F, pitching and holding is probably very common practice. Big fermenters can produce a lot of exothermic heat so holding a little lower than the desired temp isn't a bad idea, depending on cooling efficiency. Even with a homebrew-size pitch, American and English ale yeasts can ferment very quickly and have great flavor without lower temperature. I don't think you'd ever have problems with off flavors until you reach 70F plus in temperature for the earliest stages
Some lager yeasts might really do better with a few days in the low end of the their temperature range but most will do very nicely pitched at around 58F and will ferment quickly through about 60% or 70% of attenuation and can be raised to about 65For slightly warmer with a little pressure for final attenuation.

Usually I'm starting fermentation at the lowest recommended temperature for 2-3 days, after that I raise about 3-5 Celsius for 4-5 days and coldcrash
My next batch in 2 days i will try to start higher, but i will over pitch for sure

 

[Bigbre04]

Usually I'm starting fermentation at the lowest recommended temperature for 2-3 days, after that I raise about 3-5 Celsius for 4-5 days and coldcrash
My next batch in 2 days i will try to start higher, but i will over pitch for sure

if you start at the lowest end of the range you run the risk of your yeast stalling out. It can also cause stress to the yeast which can contribute to esters or off flavor production.

best practice(imo) is to shoot for a few degrees below the max temp. say max temp was 74, hitting 70 would be safe. it gives you wiggle room incase you have a bad knockout day.

O2 and nutrients are very important if you good fermentations.

 

[J A]

Usually I'm starting fermentation at the lowest recommended temperature for 2-3 days, after that I raise about 3-5 Celsius for 4-5 days and coldcrash
My next batch in 2 days i will try to start higher, but i will over pitch for sure

I used to do something similar and start US-05 on the low end. I stopped doing that because I got a peculiar diacetyl flavor when my fermentation temp was 64F or less. Now I always go to at least 66F for the pitch and set the temp controller for 67.5F. It seems very happy in that range. With some English or Belgian yeasts, I'll start a little lower, like 62F so that I don't get explosive krausen. As they progress a little, I'll raise temp to 67F for English yeasts and 70F for Belgian yeasts.

 

[Mastoras007]

Pitching at up to 72F and dropping to 67

acording to palmer's book (How to brew), that i'm reading last weeks, you should never pitch higher and drop tempreture later, after pitching must never drop tempreture to avoid yeast shock, raising is not a problem,
I'm reading it very carefully, i have made a word file that i'm copy paste all inportant details, thats one of the first ones
(i'm reading it at pdf on my computer so i can traslate strage words i don't know)

 

[Mastoras007]

if you start at the lowest end of the range you run the risk of your yeast stalling out. It can also cause stress to the yeast which can contribute to esters or off flavor production.

best practice(imo) is to shoot for a few degrees below the max temp. say max temp was 74, hitting 70 would be safe. it gives you wiggle room incase you have a bad knockout day.

O2 and nutrients are very important if you good fermentations.

no need to raise tempreture later right?
i will try this tomorow!

 

[J A]

acording to palmer's book (How to brew), that i'm reading last weeks, you should never pitch higher and drop tempreture later, after pitching must never drop tempreture to avoid yeast shock, raising is not a problem,
I'm reading it very carefully, i have made a word file that i'm copy paste all inportant details, thats one of the first ones
(i'm reading it at pdf on my computer so i can traslate strage words i don't know)

Yeast shock shouldn't be a big problem when dropping a few degrees. It's not particularly necessary but often unavoidable.

Many sources call for pitching a lager yeast at a higher temperature and dropping to desired fermentation temperature.

If you're pitching dry yeast and you rehydrate before pitching (recommended), you would definitely be dropping the temperature substantially at some point. Manufacturer's instructions say that you should add dry yeast to water that's 85F to 95F. That's much higher than pitch temperature, even for an ale. The yeast cells will definitely experience a sudden temperature drop to go from 85F to 65F or even 55F at pitching.

There would almost certainly be more of a problem with yeast that is past the reproductive stage and is actively fermenting. Very often a sudden drop will cause a stall or a stuck fermentation. Some yeasts are more susceptible than others. A reasonable drop in temperature in the first hours after pitching or anytime before krausen starts should be fine.

 

[Bigbre04]

Yeast shock shouldn't be a big problem when dropping a few degrees. It's not particularly necessary but often unavoidable.

Many sources call for pitching a lager yeast at a higher temperature and dropping to desired fermentation temperature.

If you're pitching dry yeast and you rehydrate before pitching (recommended), you would definitely be dropping the temperature substantially at some point. Manufacturer's instructions say that you should add dry yeast to water that's 85F to 95F. That's much higher than pitch temperature, even for an ale. The yeast cells will definitely experience a sudden temperature drop to go from 85F to 65F or even 55F at pitching.

There would almost certainly be more of a problem with yeast that is past the reproductive stage and is actively fermenting. Very often a sudden drop will cause a stall or a stuck fermentation. Some yeasts are more susceptible than others. A reasonable drop in temperature in the first hours after pitching or anytime before krausen starts should be fine.

Modern dry yeast is a beast.

You are no longer recommended to rehydrate it. That adds an infection vector as well as room for error.

no need to raise tempreture later right?
i will try this tomorow!

I have found 68f for an ale yeast to be a fairly universally clean temp across alot of yeasts.

Post your recipe!

 

[Bigbre04]

Actually I'm missing a part, you use voss kveik this yeast is different than us-05 i use.
Voss kveik there is not selling here, only 11g and is expensive
In Europe i found 500g but cost 120€+ shipping
Which do you use for your lagers?

I use Apex voss for my IPAs but i use Apex San Diego(chico) for my ales and Apex Munich lager for my lagers.

Try contacting LD Carlson in the states and seeing what shipping would be for Apex brand yeast. even if its expensive to ship it might still be cheaper then the alternatives. also buying a bunch at a time could save money.

 

[J A]

Modern dry yeast is a beast.

You are no longer recommended to rehydrate it. That adds an infection vector as well as room for error.

I'm seeing rehydration instructions on current Apex spec sheets. Maybe labeling hasn't caught up?

BTW...Label Peelers has bricks at 40% off.