Jump from homebrew to a brewery

[Sandy Feet]

There are a lot of online resources. Also, you might really benefit from finding a good consultant. There are many who specialize in brewery startups and even a session or two might open your eyes as to what you should expect.

It's usually the case here that small breweries will get set up and brew a number of test batches while the licensing and permitting process(es) are in the works. That way they can be sure to have the problems worked out before they try to sell any beer.

Your homebrewed may be great but you have to find out how to reproduce the quality at a much, much bigger volume. It could easily take a number of trial batches to achieve the type of beer that you can sell. Also, mastering the process of packaging the beer is a very different set of skills. One bad keg can lose a customer for good. As homebrewers, we're used to corny kegs with ez-open tops and complete access to cleaning. Half-barrel Sanke-style kegs that are used by bars are very different indeed.

Keep an open mind and positive attitude.

A lot of the newer breweries without a taproom with do the festivals here.

 

[Sandy Feet]

Big Bre, I actually have 4 that I like to frequent for different days and different reasons.

 

[Bigbre04]

hey sorry i had a very long day on friday preparing for St. Pats.

Several important things. I can only speak about the business side in the states, as that is where i am. I have talked to brewers in other countries(belgium and germany) but i cant really speak on what it is like there. My background is first and foremost commercial production brewing. I went to school for it after college. I have worked in a bunch of different breweries in different states. My current is a nano brewpub, with my previous being a large production facility. I was involved from the ground up in both of these breweries.

Kegs:
In the states, we expect 90 days shelf life on kegs and cans. I would expect to have a months worth of kegs at a minimum and the capital to purchase more when you dont have enough on hand. At my former brewery we had well over 1000 shells(1/2s and 1/6s). we didnt start with all of those, we would buy additional stock generally about 100-200 at a time as we grew.

Keg washing:
you will spend more time washing kegs than filling them. it will eat up far more time then you expect and is physically demanding as you have to touch every keg atleast 3 times. expect to spend around 3-5 mins per cleaning cycle(2-3 kegs per cycle) on an automated keg washer. obviously you can be doing this continuously throughout the work day, but it is a large amount of time either way.

Self Distribution:
--Deliveries/keg handling:
I have done it on a 10 bbl brewhouse when i was in PA. It will eat up a HUGE amount of your time and energy. You will need a truck or a van to transport the kegs. Hand trucks are ok when you start but you will swiftly need atleast a palletjack/forklift if you are dealing with larger format kegs(1/2s). An empty 1/2 weighs 40lbs. You also must take into account the distances between each bar. If you have an hour drive each way and stop at 10 bars to collect your empties that is a full work day.

--Sales and Marketing:
If you are self distributing, you will be responsible for selling your beer to the bars, taking orders, collecting money, delivering, picking up, and trouble shooting/customer service. This will take up a whole lot of your time. this is obviously scale dependent, but this is generally a full job for one person.

People:
you will need atleast 2.5 people full time to make this work(in my experience). You will need a Sales and delivery person and someone who is making the beer. Generally i would call these front of house and back of house. Front deals with customers(bars). Back of house has a lot less interaction with the public because they are making the beer, cleaning, etc. those are really 2 separate jobs. Additional jobs are payroll, paperwork, labor, etc.

Building:
Scale is everything, and this can be budget based, but you will need storage(grain and keg) as well as your brewhouse area and cellar. Not having a taproom will be really painful.

$$$
You should build your budget based on what you need. take that number and triple it. you will need that cash and then some. It can be lines of credit or whatever, but you really really need to have far more money on hand that you expect since EVERYTHING is way way more expensive then you think. plus you will need it to buy ingredients, kegs, chemicals, etc. I have seen SO many breweries fail from lack of capital.

You can do this on a budget, and you should be as tight on money as you possibly can, but having the extra money available is incredibly important. If it is possible try todo as much of this with the bank's money as you can. if you are going to get investors, always keep shares available for future rounds of investment.

Homebrewing Vs Commercial Brewing:
Homebrewing is actually much more difficult because yall dont have the equipment that i have, but that all costs money. All of the risks involved in homebrewing are still present in commercial brewing, but on a larger scale. We use significantly stronger chemicals, pumps, steam, 3phase power, forklifts, etc. Boil overs kill brewers every year. It is an industrial process and all of those things need to be respected.

You MUST be consistent batch to batch(you only get one first impression). It is hard to win customers and even harder to win them back if you piss them off. You should be running a pilot system at the same time as your main system to dial in your recipes.

Experience:
Do you know the folks at the other brewery in town? you could always try to get a job there even part time and get some experience. If they are cool, they may even help you get on your feet.


TLDR:
It is doable, but it is probably too much work for one person on their own. It will not be easy, but it can be insanely satisfying to see people enjoy your product.

I am sure that i left a ton out, but im happy to answer any questions.


Totally forgot to add:
Do your local bars have multiple taps? If so, would you be able to replace the big national beers?

Also, you really need to look at getting a recipe worked up that is interesting, but not scary for non craft beer drinkers. You cant beat the big boys, you have to build up your niche, and no matter what you will be more expensive and be a luxury pick for the tourists.

Catchy names/logos/marketing are almost more important the the actual quality of the beer. it has to be good, but it has to be visible and memorable.

 

[Bigbre04]

I am happy to help with what i can. Here is what my general week looks like.

So my current brewery is a 2bbl filling 3.5 bbl tanks, 8 draft lines, no outside sales. I have 4 Uni-tanks, and no BBT. I can shove 4bbls into the tanks when i need to. i can store a total of 40 kegs in my cooler.


My week is generally spent:
Monday:
come in and assess the weekend, plan recipes, plan the rest of the week. I frequently carbonate/package beer on mondays. If i have time, i sometimes drive out and wash kegs.(usually a 5 hr day)
Tuesday:
CIP my tank, mill in, finish my recipe for a brewday on wednesday. Often i package on tuesdays. (usually a 5hr day)
Wednesday:
Brew (9hr day)
Thursday:
Brew again if i am double batching, OR i will CIP and prep for another brew on Friday. (5-9hr day)
Friday:
Brew or do paperwork or other logistics crap.(5-9hr day)

This is roughly what my weeks look like. I also have to maintain inventory, order grain, build recipes, educate the staff, fix stuff, clean the floors/brewhouse/exterior of the tanks and I wash kegs when i need to. One of the other owners helps me out with taking spent grain, washing kegs, and paperwork(state and federal stuff). Its not super hard for me because i have been doing it for so long and its a small setup. We are looking towards expansion and building out another location. this will triple my workload and i will have to train several hourly folks to brew and help me.

I could be brewing and CIPing all in one day, but that is a much more busy day, and doesnt leave me much time to get the other stuff that i do during the day done. IF i was brewing double batches into my 4 tanks, i could in theory be brewing every day, as long as i had sub 7 day turns on my tanks. my grain storage and keg storage would swiftly hold me back.

 

[Bigbre04]

Big Bre, I actually have 4 that I like to frequent for different days and different reasons.

Sandy even though i dont actually know you, i know you. We have a crew of old dudes who come in for a few beers almost every day. Great guys/gals.

Not calling you old lol

 

[J A]

I am happy to help with what i can. Here is what my general week looks like.

So my current brewery is a 2bbl filling 3.5 bbl tanks, 8 draft lines, no outside sales. I have 4 Uni-tanks, and no BBT. I can shove 4bbls into the tanks when i need to. i can store a total of 40 kegs in my cooler.


My week is generally spent:
Monday:
come in and assess the weekend, plan recipes, plan the rest of the week. I frequently carbonate/package beer on mondays. If i have time, i sometimes drive out and wash kegs.(usually a 5 hr day)
Tuesday:
CIP my tank, mill in, finish my recipe for a brewday on wednesday. Often i package on tuesdays. (usually a 5hr day)
Wednesday:
Brew (9hr day)
Thurday:
Brew again if i am double batching, OR i will CIP and prep for another brew on Friday. (5-9hr day)
Friday:
Brew or do paperwork or other logistics crap.(5-9hr day)

This is roughly what my weeks look like. I also have to maintain inventory, order grain, build recipes, educate the staff, fix stuff, clean the floors/brewhouse/exterior of the tanks and I wash kegs when i need to. One of the other owners helps me out with taking spent grain, washing kegs, and paperwork(state and federal stuff). Its not super hard for me because i have been doing it for so long and its a small setup. We are looking towards expansion and building out another location. this will triple my workload and i will have to train several hourly folks to brew and help me.

I could be brewing and CIPing all in one day, but that is a much more busy day, and doesnt leave me much time to get the other stuff that i do during the day done. IF i was brewing double batches into my 4 tanks, i could in theory be brewing every day, as long as i had sub 7 day turns on my tanks. my grain storage and keg storage would swiftly hold me back.

I've been meaning to ask you...what's your apoproximate throughput - in gallons or bbl - compared to the taproom size (number of seats). I know it varies seasonally but you probably have a running estimate at any given time. If you're keeping all your Uni's full most of the time, seems like you could be doing anywhere from 300 bbl to 500 bbl, depending on turns but if you're brewing mostly 2x weekly with a 2bbl house, that's closer to 200-250 bbl.
Do you have guest taps or is it all in-house? Is yours a taproom with some food available or more like a full restaurant/taproom?

 

[Bigbre04]

I've been meaning to ask you...what's your apoproximate throughput - in gallons or bbl - compared to the taproom size (number of seats). I know it varies seasonally but you probably have a running estimate at any given time. If you're keeping all your Uni's full most of the time, seems like you could be doing anywhere from 300 bbl to 500 bbl, depending on turns but if you're brewing mostly 2x weekly with a 2bbl house, that's closer to 200-250 bbl.
Do you have guest taps or is it all in-house? Is yours a taproom with some food available or more like a full restaurant/taproom?

I am not actually at work today, but i generally brew 1-3 times a week based on demand. We seat 44 people and i rarely have all 4 of my unis full, mainly because im brewing to demand. If i do brew ahead of time it is usually a lager that is happy to sit for a few weeks, but i rarely have the time todo that. we are a small space and we have food as well.

There is enough variation between the kitchen using beer, flights, donations, etc. that i dont have a solid weekly number. I generally shoot to have a fresh batch of beer in the tank when we tap the second to last keg on that draft line in the summer and for a brand that is a fast seller(session ipa, Juicy, and Golden lager). winter i can wait until we tap the final keg unless its a lager. I only really double batch the golden lager and the session ipa since they are both my best sellers and are on lines 4 and 5 so i have space to store 8 kegs on those 2 lines. the others can only hold 4 kegs each.

Im brewing alot of sub 10 day beers. I could easily out brew my keg cooler. I am generally doing right around 90 batches a year. so roughly 180bbls annually.
my ipas are 7 day grain to glass and my lagers are 8-10 days. normal ales are somewhere between.

 

[Mastoras007]

I am not actually at work today, but i generally brew 1-3 times a week based on demand. We seat 44 people and i rarely have all 4 of my unis full, mainly because im brewing to demand. If i do brew ahead of time it is usually a lager that is happy to sit for a few weeks, but i rarely have the time todo that. we are a small space and we have food as well.

There is enough variation between the kitchen using beer, flights, donations, etc. that i dont have a solid weekly number. I generally shoot to have a fresh batch of beer in the tank when we tap the second to last keg on that draft line in the summer and for a brand that is a fast seller(session ipa, Juicy, and Golden lager). winter i can wait until we tap the final keg unless its a lager. I only really double batch the golden lager and the session ipa since they are both my best sellers and are on lines 4 and 5 so i have space to store 8 kegs on those 2 lines. the others can only hold 4 kegs each.

Im brewing alot of sub 10 day beers. I could easily out brew my keg cooler. I am generally doing right around 90 batches a year. so roughly 180bbls annually.
my ipas are 7 day grain to glass and my lagers are 8-10 days. normal ales are somewhere between.

I'm out now can't write to much, how you hit 10 days a larger grain to glass?
Later i will reply more, this sounds very interesting

 

[J A]

I am not actually at work today, but i generally brew 1-3 times a week based on demand. We seat 44 people and i rarely have all 4 of my unis full, mainly because im brewing to demand. If i do brew ahead of time it is usually a lager that is happy to sit for a few weeks, but i rarely have the time todo that. we are a small space and we have food as well.

There is enough variation between the kitchen using beer, flights, donations, etc. that i dont have a solid weekly number. I generally shoot to have a fresh batch of beer in the tank when we tap the second to last keg on that draft line in the summer and for a brand that is a fast seller(session ipa, Juicy, and Golden lager). winter i can wait until we tap the final keg unless its a lager. I only really double batch the golden lager and the session ipa since they are both my best sellers and are on lines 4 and 5 so i have space to store 8 kegs on those 2 lines. the others can only hold 4 kegs each.

Im brewing alot of sub 10 day beers. I could easily out brew my keg cooler. I am generally doing right around 90 batches a year. so roughly 180bbls annually.
my ipas are 7 day grain to glass and my lagers are 8-10 days. normal ales are somewhere between.

That makes sense. The average demand, unless it's an urban location in a hot market, is usually computed at 3-5 bbl per year per seat so your numbers bear that out. And every time I've computed storage needs, it comes out to be roughly the same as the number of seats. Having a little excess fermenter capacity seems like a very prudent thing. I've run the numbers a few times on what it would take to work a very small taproom and anything above about 50-60 bbl/year is more than one person can handle, even with part time help. And it requires a loyal clientele that's willing to pay a relatively high price per pint. Small is tough and scale definitely wins when it comes to pumping suds.

 

[J A]

I'm out now can't write to much, how you hit 10 days a larger grain to glass?
Later i will reply more, this sounds very interesting

I can take a swing at that one...Big pitch of dependable, high flocc'ing yeast, careful temp control, pressure fermentation and filtration if you can do it or good fining program if you can't.

 

[Bigbre04]

That makes sense. The average demand, unless it's an urban location in a hot market, is usually computed at 3-5 bbl per year per seat so your numbers bear that out. And every time I've computed storage needs, it comes out to be roughly the same as the number of seats. Having a little excess fermenter capacity seems like a very prudent thing. I've run the numbers a few times on what it would take to work a very small taproom and anything above about 50-60 bbl/year is more than one person can handle, even with part time help. And it requires a loyal clientele that's willing to pay a relatively high price per pint. Small is tough and scale definitely wins when it comes to pumping suds.

I do about 80% of the actual brewery work. What i dont do is serve the beer, the federal and state paperwork, and i generally get help dealing with the spent grain and kegs. Man i was running a multishift brewery with(in its hay day) 6 brewers and several part time helpers and dealing with distribution. This is a cake walk lol.

 

[Bigbre04]

I can take a swing at that one...Big pitch of dependable, high flocc'ing yeast, careful temp control, pressure fermentation and filtration if you can do it or good fining program if you can't.

I dont do pressure fermentation or filtration/finings, but i do over pitch significantly. I should bite the bullet and get a pressure thingy(name is escaping me). temp control is very important.

i pitch 250g of apex munich lager yeast into 2bbls of beer. ferment it around 62-64f. Wait for repeating gravs or i cap(when i catch it at the right time) it and wait till it no longer rises in pressure. i also give it 20g of yeast X and 1LPM of O2 for the first knockout. Second does not get o2.

When i have time, i will leave it cold and carbonated for as long as is possible, but i rarely have time. I also dont transfer it off the yeast, because i loose too much volume.

 

[J A]

I dont do pressure fermentation or filtration/finings, but i do over pitch significantly. I should bite the bullet and get a pressure thingy(name is escaping me). temp control is very important.

i pitch 250g of apex munich lager yeast into 2bbls of beer. ferment it around 62-64f. Wait for repeating gravs or i cap(when i catch it at the right time) it and wait till it no longer rises in pressure. i also give it 20g of yeast X and 1LPM of O2 for the first knockout. Second does not get o2.

If you have Uni's then spunding (that's the word you're looking for) is a breeze. My SS Brewtech Uni's all have the same PRV. It's set to release at 15 PSI but even the "non-adjustable" ones are put together with a spring and a threaded portion that holds it in place. I can back off the threads partway and get it to blow at 5 psi or whatever. I find that the 15 PSI is fine for fermenting at 60F to 65F (which I always hit late in the fermentation) but pressure from the beginning of fermentation would be a little lower, especially when fermenting in the 50F-55F range. I cap the blowoff with a CO2 poppet fitting when I'm in the mid teens gravity and let it ride the PRV takes care of holding pressure at an appropriate carb level. When it's done and I crash, I just adjust the pressure to match the volumes/temperature that works for the carb level I want.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

As business i think the numbers is reachable, i was managing a business for 10 years, i close because COVID, anyway i want to say that i have a lot of experience at business part, managing a business,

I think this is your biggest asset. You'll know more than most homebrewers that go pro. Just think a few years from now, when Mastoras007 beer is being distributed worldwide, we can say "We knew him when he first started!" I hope you go for it!!

 

[Bigbre04]

If you have Uni's then spunding (that's the word you're looking for) is a breeze. My SS Brewtech Uni's all have the same PRV. It's set to release at 15 PSI but even the "non-adjustable" ones are put together with a spring and a threaded portion that holds it in place. I can back off the threads partway and get it to blow at 5 psi or whatever. I find that the 15 PSI is fine for fermenting at 60F to 65F (which I always hit late in the fermentation) but pressure from the beginning of fermentation would be a little lower, especially when fermenting in the 50F-55F range. I cap the blowoff with a CO2 poppet fitting when I'm in the mid teens gravity and let it ride the PRV takes care of holding pressure at an appropriate carb level. When it's done and I crash, I just adjust the pressure to match the volumes/temperature that works for the carb level I want.

mine are PRVRs i have them set to pop before the tank hits 20psi. I honestly would not trust them for Spunding, i would get a dedicated blow off arm mounted part. I need to actually go in and spend the time reading the german manuals for my glycol controllers because they have drifted and read generally around 3F higher then the actual tank. i know i can adjust them, i just have to dig the manual out. I cap the tank when i catch it down around 4 or 5p just to save on CO2 and to be an additional indicator of the tank being finished ferementation.

 

[J A]

mine are PRVRs i have them set to pop before the tank hits 20psi. I honestly would not trust them for Spunding, i would get a dedicated blow off arm mounted part. I need to actually go in and spend the time reading the german manuals for my glycol controllers because they have drifted and read generally around 3F higher then the actual tank. i know i can adjust them, i just have to dig the manual out. I cap the tank when i catch it down around 4 or 5p just to save on CO2 and to be an additional indicator of the tank being finished ferementation.

Yeah...at a pro level, you'd want to have something easily adjustable and accurate. Probably a bit more critical with bigger tanks. Doesn't sound like you need it much, though. I don't hold pressure on mine until it's pretty far along and then, like you, I mostly want to carb without adding CO2.

 

[Bigbre04]

Yeah...at a pro level, you'd want to have something easily adjustable and accurate. Probably a bit more critical with bigger tanks. Doesn't sound like you need it much, though. I don't hold pressure on mine until it's pretty far along and then, like you, I mostly want to carb without adding CO2.

I have just seen the PRVRs fail and on a big tank that can be a big boom.

 

[Mastoras007]

we expect 90 days shelf life on kegs and cans

First off all theanks for your time-replys!
30 days at witch tempreture? if i use cold room (refrigerator room) then what?
my 1st target is 60 kegs per month, with that number i can be profitable ennouch to take it serious as my main work, (currently i'm working to my brothers company plambing)

you will spend more time washing kegs than filling them. it will eat up far more time then you expect and is physically demanding as you have to touch every keg atleast 3 times. expect to spend around 3-5 mins per cleaning cycle(2-3 kegs per cycle) on an automated keg washer. obviously you can be doing this continuously throughout the work day, but it is a large amount of time either way.

Because of low budged - low sell target i will not buy automated cleaning machine, but i will build one my self , small cip apple balls puting on the keg and presurised with hot water chemicals etc. i will build this my self cost no more than 200-300€ but as i said i will have to wash just 60-100 kegs per month

I have done it on a 10 bbl brewhouse when i was in PA. It will eat up a HUGE amount of your time and energy. You will need a truck or a van to transport the kegs. Hand trucks are ok when you start but you will swiftly need atleast a palletjack/forklift if you are dealing with larger format kegs(1/2s). An empty 1/2 weighs 40lbs. You also must take into account the distances between each bar. If you have an hour drive each way and stop at 10 bars to collect your empties that is a full work day.

i own already the van , my smaller brother is ready to take that job wen - (if) we hit the 100kegs /month target!

If you are self distributing, you will be responsible for selling your beer to the bars, taking orders, collecting money, delivering, picking up, and trouble shooting/customer service. This will take up a whole lot of your time. this is obviously scale dependent, but this is generally a full job for one person

my wife was working some years ago to sales cigarettes and drings, she will take this part atleast the first months -year

Scale is everything, and this can be budget based, but you will need storage(grain and keg) as well as your brewhouse area and cellar. Not having a taproom will be really painful.

as i said budget is low, probably i will start with a building close to my house 90 m2 area, rent is 300€ cheap for my city standards

You should build your budget based on what you need. take that number and triple it. you will need that cash and then some. It can be lines of credit or whatever, but you really really need to have far more money on hand that you expect since EVERYTHING is way way more expensive then you think. plus you will need it to buy ingredients, kegs, chemicals, etc. I have seen SO many breweries fail from lack of capital

truth is i have already take prices almost for everything , equipment fv, bbt, pumps , costruction, and many other, i have capital to run all this project for 10 months without earn any money, after 10 months my biger brother (the plumber) will invest some capital if i need,

You MUST be consistent batch to batch

this is something i need some work..probabl;y i will ask for help - training from someone professional

Do your local bars have multiple taps? If so, would you be able to replace the big national beers?

Also, you really need to look at getting a recipe worked up that is interesting, but not scary for non craft beer drinkers. You cant beat the big boys, you have to build up your niche, and no matter what you will be more expensive and be a luxury pick for the tourists

Most of them no, 90% have just 1 craft, and 90% of them they just have the cheapest
i will focus only 1 recipe close to those selling here alitle bit hopy, very litle, we are not used to all those flavored beers here, for example most of people here prefer to dring 2 cheap simple beers than 1 IPA, i will focus a recipe as simple as posible but giving a very smal flavor probably i will go for a blonde ale, or i will work your method to make a good- fast making lager, i dont have the equipment to lager 1 month...

 

[Mastoras007]

I think this is your biggest asset. You'll know more than most homebrewers that go pro. Just think a few years from now, when Mastoras007 beer is being distributed worldwide, we can say "We knew him when he first started!" I hope you go for it!!

I don't thing i have time to succeed in this life, but you never know!

 

[Mastoras007]

also for chiller, i don't have budget to buy one, i will constuct one also, i will have a very good isolated vesel with 500 liters of glycol, iside that vessel i will connect refrigeration machine with copper coil which will cool the tank to -5 Celsius and maintain permanently there.
Next step with thermostats i will control switch valves to each beer vessel and 1 pump giving cooland as demand, i can build all those myself , i have work in the past to food industry, (milk factory) and my main work is marine engineer, as i said now working to my brothers plumber company, i can build all this making work automatic, use cloud sensors control everything from my sellphone, puting notifications if some tempreture or presure drop for example.
for heating is more easy, same logic but with a tank with hot glycol

All those are my plan, i'm happy to tel me what i'm thinking whrong, what i missing But truth is because of low budget i do it that way or i can't..
if i have to pay for all of those i need more than 100k witch i don't have..