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You are working really hard at a simple process that you obviously already know if you look at yourself. RDWHAHB. A cheap simple fermentation cooler is to place your fermentation vessel in a large pan of cool water, soak an old tee shirt with water and place it over the vessel with the bottom in the water. It will keep wicking up water as it evaporates and cool things down 5-10 degrees. If that's not enough add a chunk of ice once in a while. Hitting the mash temp you will figure out. Pay attention to ambient temp and save a couple of qts out when you first mash in. You can always bring it up to boil then add without heating wort.
 
Thanks for the responses, but what I'm really hoping for is some input on a few specific questions:

  1. My beer is tart. Is this a typical symptom of high temperature fermentation?
  2. My beer is bitter. Does cocoa add bitterness on top of the hops?
  3. My beer is flat. Could this be caused by too much gelatin finings?
  4. My beer is flat. Did I use a reasonable amount of DME for conditioning?

I'm sure I can fix the mash and fermentation temperature problems, I'm just wondering if others have experience to assist me in understanding what I'm detecting in my brew. I don't want to repeat this recipe with a proper mash and fermentation and still find that it is tart, bitter and flat.
 
Higher temps when fermentation is most active produces many by products including fusel alcohols , these give hangovers bad enough to swear off booze
Mostly they give a hot feeling on the tongue .

As far as carbing goes it only takes a single viable yeast cell and it will eventually carb up , gelatin does not remove all of them
Priming with DME requires a different rate than table /cane sugar and can take slightly longer
 
Not totally sure but tart and overly bitter could be contamination in my mind. For instance brettanomyces it's a big beer spoiler it's a tarty bastard! And as for bitterness poorly stored hops can come across with a harsh bitterness not that it's this Im trying to help is all. My brews in past that were no good were bitter and sour but like lingering type flavour. It should go malty maybe sweet then tangy sour to bitterness that's what I get when brews off. Yea it sure does suck spoilage not that this may be the case! Like Has been said give it some time in the bottle hopefully when carbed up it may improve flat beer sucks. That's like my cream ale other day good flavours but not carbbed yet it's better bubbly:p.

My current L1 lager isn't 100% it's a little to thick wierdi know but too malty I think something to do with salt additions it's not crisp enough I drink three of these and I'm literally full to brim not digestible to use monk terms maybe some simple sugars to thin it a little or rice.

Yep we can always improve our brews somewhere that's why the next brew hopefully will be better than last:rolleyes:.

Good luck GPA
 
Ok lets start with 3 and 4 . The priming calculator on this site calls for 2.3 oz of DME for carbonation of 2.0 volumes of CO2. I think it sounds like you just added per bottle which isn't very accurate. Your better off using a bottling bucket and mixing priming media with all the beer then bottling. It's much more accurate. Play with this calculator a bit to get used to it. It works pretty well.
For 1and 2 lots of things can cause bitter. For 1 if you added lager yeast to bottles that could do it till it settles out. It will fix itself more than likely. Did you stir in much oxygen when bottling? Yes there is always a chance of an infection. It happens to everybody even the big boys with multi barrel systems. Just a couple of points to check. Hope this helps.
 
Thurston Brewer said:
Thanks for the responses, but what I'm really hoping for is some input on a few specific questions:

  1. My beer is tart. Is this a typical symptom of high temperature fermentation?
  2. My beer is bitter. Does cocoa add bitterness on top of the hops?
  3. My beer is flat. Could this be caused by too much gelatin finings?
  4. My beer is flat. Did I use a reasonable amount of DME for conditioning?

I'm sure I can fix the mash and fermentation temperature problems, I'm just wondering if others have experience to assist me in understanding what I'm detecting in my brew. I don't want to repeat this recipe with a proper mash and fermentation and still find that it is tart, bitter and flat.
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As a lover of Porters I have a few tips, don't use calcium carbonate for raising mash ph. It doesn't really work very well. I use baking soda [sodium bi-carbonate] or slaked lime [pickling lime] if your water has enough sodium. A little goes a long way for both and be careful with the lime don't inhale or get it in your eyes. I would mash at a higher ph for dark beers the dark grains drive the ph lower and can have an acrid almost burnt taste when ph is too low. This could be what you perceive as some of the bitterness. I shoot for ph of 5.4-5.5 in dark beers, this smooths them out. For mash temp try 155-156 for more body. I wouldn't bother using gelatin on a dark beer, it can drop some yeast and hop particles as well. I have not used DME for bottle conditioning but I hear it takes longer. I use table sugar it works fine and is always on hand. + 1 to getting a bottling bucket and gently mixing in priming solution. Hope this helps and welcome back. check out https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ this is a spreadsheet for water additions and ph estimates both http://www.howtobrew.com/
 
Thanks for the great input, Gents. Especially about being patient and DME taking longer than sugar. I like the idea of DME so as not to dilute the flavor but that's probably just a conceit; I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference.

I'm popping another bottle tonight for testing...
 
Thurston Brewer said:
I'm popping another bottle tonight for testing...
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Much better after a few more days. Carbonation increasing and the tartness is much abated. I think another week should do it well.

Still too dry and thin-bodied, of course, due to the low mash temp. I'll definitely be mashing hotter next time, and probably for less time as well.
 
Thurston Brewer said:
Thanks for the responses, but what I'm really hoping for is some input on a few specific questions:

  1. My beer is tart. Is this a typical symptom of high temperature fermentation?
  2. My beer is bitter. Does cocoa add bitterness on top of the hops?
  3. My beer is flat. Could this be caused by too much gelatin finings?
  4. My beer is flat. Did I use a reasonable amount of DME for conditioning?

I'm sure I can fix the mash and fermentation temperature problems, I'm just wondering if others have experience to assist me in understanding what I'm detecting in my brew. I don't want to repeat this recipe with a proper mash and fermentation and still find that it is tart, bitter and flat.
Click to expand...

1. Tart is acidity. If you're getting excessive tartness, it could be due to water treatment (acidification) or it would most likely be due to bacteria. If it's "clean" tartness, it's lactobacillus. If it's cidery, it's acetobacter and remember, acetobacter requires air. If it's both or if you're getting other off-flavors, it's a general contamination. If the tartness is increasing over time, it's contamination. Dump or drink the beer before the bottles start to explode.
2. Bitter can be hops - sometimes the utilization isn't what you predict. Cocoa adds bitterness. It could also potentially be astringency. Cocoa provides some astringency in addition to bitterness.
3. Gelatin will not contribute to flat beer. It could reduce some head retention. Flat beer would be caused by too little sugar in packaging. If I were to bet on what's causing flat beer, it would be either (4) - why you're using DME instead of cheap sugar is a different question altogether - or time. All it takes to carbonate is a few yeast cells, sugar, and time. You'll have the yeast unless you filter very aggressively, the sugar is under your control and the time is a requirement.
 
Good points, Nosy. I think the 'tartness' may just be 'astringency' (not really clear what the difference is...) from the cocoa - it's definitely mellowing with time so I think it will be OK with some more aging. The bitterness, too, is not so out of balance now, but the chocolatey flavor may be more than I need, so I can consider cutting down on the cocoa in further batches.

As for DME priming, I guess it's just AG snobbery; the idea that all sugars should come from malt in some form. I can't imagine it really makes a difference, so I should prolly just go with sugar priming henceforth.
 
Astringency to me is like sucking on a tea bag. it's mouth drying and almost woody to me. think like a dry red wine

Tartness to me isn't necessarily dry, more like sucking on a lemon. if you have a chance to taste a little bit of acidulated malt, that's my definition of tartness
 
jmcnamara said:
Astringency to me is like sucking on a tea bag. it's mouth drying and almost woody to me. think like a dry red wine

Tartness to me isn't necessarily dry, more like sucking on a lemon. if you have a chance to taste a little bit of acidulated malt, that's my definition of tartness
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Yep I'm picking up your tartness maca I think I've been adding a little too much accidulated to my last lager as no I get a slight tingling on my tongue when drinking it. 200g is all I added but I swear I can taste the tartness
 
Yeah, I'm thinking now it's just astringency and a little extra bitter from the cocoa, but it seems to be mellowing in nicely. I'll try another one this week and see how she's coming. I also noted that I used DME at the quantity recommended for white sugar, so I may never get to quite the level of fizziness I was aiming for.

I just bottled my second batch today (Pale Ale), and I used the recommended amount of cane sugar. Should give me a better carbonation with less of a wait. I'll check on that in two weeks.
 
Another bottle last night and it seems about the same. Drinkable but nothing to write home about. I think maybe the main culprit is just the lack of body. With nothing to balance out the cocoa effects, they're more pronounced. I'll definitely try the same recipe the next time with better mashing and not such a fast fermentation.
 
Now to decide on the next brew... A good friend is a pilsner fan (Stella Artois, Urquell...) so I was thinking to try that direction, though since I don't have a way to control fermentation temperature it would have to be a steam pils... On the other hand, I'm keen to try my hand at an Irish Red Ale. Or a Maibock? Heading into the cooler months, I will probably go with the Irish.
 
Decided to go with the Ale, since my buddy is tied up for the next couple of weeks and I need to get another batch in the fermenter.

Besides, I've got a boat-load of ale yeast left from my previous batch!
 
Yeah, but it doesn't feel like winter here... heading into another heat wave..

Speaking of Irish Red Ale, I'm wondering which water profile you guys would suggest:

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I was thinking the London profile would be closest.. but I really don't know.
 
Yep just my 2 c steer clear or Pilsner go ale more forgiving :p you don't have to do much wrong with a Pilsner to end up down the drain:oops:. My first partial all grain was with Pilsner malt I drunk em all but yep my next batch using pale ale malt was way better:)​
 
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