New approach to starters

OK so the yeast nutrient I've got from kegland doesn't have any Nitrogen in it dam it!
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OK I'll get some DAP but unfortunately will have to hold off till next brew order.
 
Mark Farrall said:
I've got both types now. I'll start the process this arvo. Think I'll try yeast nutrient first off.
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Oh so what about this C:Nitrogen ratio?

Was listening this morning they used "yeast extract" so old yeast cells?

Why not add some bakers dried yeast?
I've done this in the past when out of nutrient.

Was hoping to brew another batch this weekend not sure weather a lager or ale but was looking forward to trying out some low gravity wort like 1.012SG and adding a teaspoon of nutrient and just observing the starter.
 
The yeast nutrient I have has both organic and non-organic nitrogen. But because I don't know how much nitrogen it has, I'm expecting to have too much nitrogen.

I'm seeing that purely non-organic nitrogen, like DAP, isn't as good for ester formation as organic nitrogen. And the beers I'm planning to try for the next few batches would all benefit from a few more esters. So I'll be starting with a low level of carbon and probably too much nitrogen, in the hope that too much nitrogen is acceptable, but too little nitrogen isn't.

I don't brew many beers where I want fewer esters, so I'll see if it works with my normal yeast nutrient first, before going to DAP.
 
Mark Farrall said:
The yeast nutrient I have has both organic and non-organic nitrogen. But because I don't know how much nitrogen it has, I'm expecting to have too much nitrogen.

I'm seeing that purely non-organic nitrogen, like DAP, isn't as good for ester formation as organic nitrogen. And the beers I'm planning to try for the next few batches would all benefit from a few more esters. So I'll be starting with a low level of carbon and probably too much nitrogen, in the hope that too much nitrogen is acceptable, but too little nitrogen isn't.

I don't brew many beers where I want fewer esters, so I'll see if it works with my normal yeast nutrient first, before going to DAP.
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Awesome look forward to how you get on with it Mark.

Sounds like this article I was just reading on the very subject whilst looking around for nitrogen based yeast nutrient https://scottlab.com/yeast-nutrition-inorganic-vs-organic-nitrogen#:~:text=WHAT FORMS OF NITROGEN CAN,be supplemented with winemaking nutrients.
 
I'd be surprised if the kegland yeast nutrient wasn't largely based on old yeast cells to give the organic nitrogen, as I doubt they're doing anything other than buying it in bulk from a yeast source. Probably worth an email.
 
Mark Farrall said:
I'd be surprised if the kegland yeast nutrient wasn't largely based on old yeast cells to give the organic nitrogen, as I doubt they're doing anything other than buying it in bulk from a yeast source. Probably worth an email.
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Cool ok will do so asking what the apparent nitrogen concentration of their yeast nutrient would be maybe even a spec sheat on the nutrient.
 
The wonderful staff at Kegmenter kindly emailed back on my nitrogen yeast nutrient amount.
Looks like it's Llamand yeast nutrient.
Pretty much GO ASK THEM:D!

I'll give DR Google a consult but must be some yeast extract coming from a major yeast supplier.
Either way I'll be using 5 g nutrient ina 1.012 2 plato starter this weekend to prepare my Gen 8 34/70 yeast (rekon that near 8 months on the regen lol)

Looks like it's most likely yeastlife extra going by their information
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...YQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw23le625gDqZlvr_RzUhrQQ

They do list amino acids and nitrogen.
The dosage rates for yeast life extra is 4 - 15g/ HL that's around 3 ish g/20lt batch on the higher rate?
(My maths correct 100lt / 20 = 5 . 15g/5 = 3g ?
Or if it's yeast life O it's 30g - 250g this stuff looks fully organic but i think its designed for wine/ meed fermentations just my uneducated thoughts.
 
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Short of a them listing organic or inorganic, being derived from chemicals requires the manufacturer to list what those chemicals are ie: diammonium phosphate whereas an organic ingredient would cite minerals in the organic compounds ie: nitrogen, iron would be in yeast extract or basically dead yeast cells.
 
Sorry to overload this thread but excited about the potential of less wort for 50%~more yeast trade off.

34/70 Gen 8 or 9 not sure didn't look :confused:
20221125_164610.jpg


OK I tried to dilute to 1.012 but ended up at 4 plato 1.016 RWS dilution
20221125_174735.jpg

Added this much nutrient
20221125_174858.jpg

That's plenty!

Diluted wort in flask pre boil (stove top)
20221125_174927.jpg


Spinning tonight at tonight's ambient temp 21c will drop overnight
20221125_201446.jpg

This flask is covered
 
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Finally ready to pitch tonight. I restarted about 50 mL of old slurry in a 200mL starter as per my last post. Gave them a bit over 48 hours then crashed. Then pitched those a few days later into 1 litre starters. Again, gave them a bit over 48 hours and crashed them. I'll decant off the beer then add the slurry to the fermenters when they hit temp (ground water has started getting warm down here).

The slurry is from a mixed Brett / Saison beer I used to make every 3-4 months. I haven't been brewing much the last year so it seems like the Brett has been dying off. Supposedly Brett struggles when stored in cold conditions for longer than a month. That certainly matches how the beer has been tasting as it's becoming a more straight Saison for a while now. So I doubt there will be much Brett influence in this batch.

The more I look at my process, the less belief I have that I'm giving the low sugar approach any chance of succeeding. I haven't really been able to add much O2 to the starters at all. They've been upstairs in the kitchen and I've been downstairs in the office most of the time, so very few shaken events at all. Both starters did seem to give off a lot of gas when I did get to shake them, so something was definitely active. My wife thought the low sugar 200 mL starter was the star of the 4. The foil lid definitely looked like there was a lot of gas gas escaping. Though that might just have been the way it ended up when I tightened the lid.

The recipe for this is https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/841466/y-tymor-bach

There's a Tilt in each fermenter and I'll start posting screen grabs of the fermentation graph once there's some data worth showing.

Ben's so much more trustworthy than me. He puts up lots of pictures. I've just got the one...

PXL_20221201_045130612.jpg
 
Mark Farrall said:
Finally ready to pitch tonight. I restarted about 50 mL of old slurry in a 200mL starter as per my last post. Gave them a bit over 48 hours then crashed. Then pitched those a few days later into 1 litre starters. Again, gave them a bit over 48 hours and crashed them. I'll decant off the beer then add the slurry to the fermenters when they hit temp (ground water has started getting warm down here).

The slurry is from a mixed Brett / Saison beer I used to make every 3-4 months. I haven't been brewing much the last year so it seems like the Brett has been dying off. Supposedly Brett struggles when stored in cold conditions for longer than a month. That certainly matches how the beer has been tasting as it's becoming a more straight Saison for a while now. So I doubt there will be much Brett influence in this batch.

The more I look at my process, the less belief I have that I'm giving the low sugar approach any chance of succeeding. I haven't really been able to add much O2 to the starters at all. They've been upstairs in the kitchen and I've been downstairs in the office most of the time, so very few shaken events at all. Both starters did seem to give off a lot of gas when I did get to shake them, so something was definitely active. My wife thought the low sugar 200 mL starter was the star of the 4. The foil lid definitely looked like there was a lot of gas gas escaping. Though that might just have been the way it ended up when I tightened the lid.

The recipe for this is https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/841466/y-tymor-bach

There's a Tilt in each fermenter and I'll start posting screen grabs of the fermentation graph once there's some data worth showing.

Ben's so much more trustworthy than me. He puts up lots of pictures. I've just got the one...

View attachment 23282
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Looking great Mark!
So that pic is of your side by side batch?
Looking forward to how fermentation goes.:)


My batch is spunding ATM havnt taken a Gravity sample since pitch but the yeast lagged maybe 12 hrs nothing unusual anyhow...
 
Took gravity sample on that beer I fermented with this low C:N ratio yeast starter
20221202_174328.jpg

1.006.

SG was 1.048

That's 87% attenuation on par if not a little better for what I got last batch out of this yeast in a similar grist (NZ pils Comparrison).

Sample was super hoppy tis a NZ pils I brewed but it tasted great nice and clean will get a better yeast profile once it's carbed and conditioned a bit.

So far I'll be continuing to make my starters this way for sure!
 
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So from what I understand from this thread, you can use relatively weak wort for a starter as long as you provide nitrogen? And Diammonium Phosphate is a good source of nitrogen. 5 grams in 2.5 liters of 1.012-ish wort, plus yeast plus stirring and one should get more yeast than a traditional starter (1.040 wort plus yeast plus stirring)

Is that the accurate short version??
 
Donoroto said:
So from what I understand from this thread, you can use relatively weak wort for a starter as long as you provide nitrogen? And Diammonium Phosphate is a good source of nitrogen. 5 grams in 2.5 liters of 1.012-ish wort, plus yeast plus stirring and one should get more yeast than a traditional starter (1.040 wort plus yeast plus stirring)

Is that the accurate short version??
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Tis how I'm looking at it Don

It's a win win and it does sound a bit too good to be true but providing the yeast with a good source of nitrogen to build up their health reserves in this low sugar medium before the real work begins in fermentation sounds right to me;).

Here's a pic of my saved yeast off that low C:N starter
20221203_123124.jpg

Looks nice and white and healthy compared to the starter jar above ^ a few posts #33.
 
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I'm giving it a shot...5g of nutrient to 10g of dme into 750 ml of water. Yeast is some Scottish Ale yeast, Wyeast 1728.

I have it my stir plate cooling down while the snack pack grows...I should have done that earlier..
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