Dry hops vs oxidation

[GFHomebrew]

Definitely a viable option for fermenters that don't support pressurization. If I had a problem with oxidation, would be doing that for sure.

Old mate I'm sure does it in this one

Only reason I don't but use co2 to push into keg is I don't want to lift my keg into my keezer.

So before transfer like day before I put the cleaned sanitized purged keg into the keezer (empty) then push the beer in.

 

[Markok]

Trialben, after filling the keg with starsan I push it out with CO2. Then if I fill the keg with beer as you see in the picture. I haven’t had any issues with oxidation since I’ve done it this way.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Trialben, after filling the keg with starsan I push it out with CO2. Then if I fill the keg with beer as you see in the picture. I haven’t had any issues with oxidation since I’ve done it this way.

Lovely I started that way filling recieving keg with starsan and pushing it liquid to liquid but it meant I needed two kegs spare for this so I've opted for the latter just running fermentation through the keg via liquid side and purging out through liquid connected to preassure sprayer with star san in.

Sounds like your only o2 will be through opening fermentation vessel for dry hopping hence the desire to hop on krausen...

 

[BOB357]

Old mate I'm sure does it in this one

Only reason I don't but use co2 to push into keg is I don't want to lift my keg into my keezer.

So before transfer like day before I put the cleaned sanitized purged keg into the keezer (empty) then push the beer in.

I'm sure I'd need to do things differently if I brewed NEIPAs, but I don't.
Just being careful to avoid splashing and unnecessary agitation has served me well. In the 2 to 3 weeks it takes me to go through a keg of beer, I find no perceptible negative affects associated with oxygenation, even in my hoppy IPAs.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I'm sure I'd need to do things differently if I brewed NEIPAs, but I don't.
Just being careful to avoid splashing and unnecessary agitation has served me well. In the 2 to 3 weeks it takes me to go through a keg of beer, I find no perceptible negative affects associated with oxygenation, even in my hoppy IPAs.

Amen if it ain't broken don't fix it .

Just putting options down on the table.

 

[Daniel Parshley]

Simple. Hops. Added late they bring oxygen to the party and that destroys the beer. It's a fragile style and I have tasted very few good ones.

This post and others about adding dry hops when pitching the yeast mirror my experiences. I have not been able to get the quality of aromas and flavors by dry hopping in the secondary. Besides, dry hopping in the primary makes it smell wonderful in the room for the first 2-3 days. Primary hop addition aromas and flavor seem to hold up longer in the bottle, too.

 

[west1m]

Lovely

Sounds like your only o2 will be through opening fermentation vessel for dry hopping hence the desire to hop on krausen...

When I cold crash I remove the bubbler and replace it with a one quart ziplock bag filled with CO2 .just cut one corner off the bag and tape a hose with a barb at the other end that fits the rubber stopper. When draining to a CO2 purged keg ( haven't gotten to the pressure transfer thing yet) I cut off the other corner and stuff a C O2 hose in the bag and tape around it . Then just keep the bag puffy as the beer drains to the keg.

 

[Markok]

Fellow Brewers I have one last question related to this thread. I think we’ve well established that o2 can be a problem with any beer that receives dry hops. We’ve also determined that a good mitigation to this problem is introduce the dry hops while fermentation is still taking place and to remove those hops after no more than 5 days. One good way to remove these hops is to perform a transfer of the beer from the fermenter into a keg and allow the keg to become the fermenter keeping a closed system and allowing pressure to build in the keg while keeping it at fermentation temperatures for a few more days to ensure fermentation completion. I did just this yesterday using the positive pressure transfer method I show further up in this thread.

Now for the final question. Essentially I have transferred to secondary thus removing the beer from the yeast cake. This was done after only five days. While I achieved my theoretical FG (1.015), I am no longer allowing the yeast to clean up after themselves. Could this be a problem for off flavors later on?

 

[Nosybear]

There's still quite enough yeast in suspension in the beer you racked off the yeast cake to clean up after itself.

 

[BOB357]

As @Nosybear states, there's still plenty of yeast remaining in suspension after the transfer. Most of the cleanup has been done once the beer has reached terminal gravity, verified when gravity has been stable for ~3 days. "Theoretical FG" is quite often a poor gauge of actual FG, so I'd recommend verification.

 

[Hawkbox]

I almost never hit the actual theoretical FG in any of my beers.

 

[Nosybear]

I almost never hit the actual theoretical FG in any of my beers.

I have generally been under but now that I have the RIMS system lined out, I'm hitting the predicted FG a lot more often. Before I generally finished under the prediction, I attribute it to mash cooling or cold spots in the mash, eliminated now that I'm recirculating throughout the mash and heating to a few tenths of a degree of the set temperature.

 

[Markok]

I have generally been under but now that I have the RIMS system lined out, I'm hitting the predicted FG a lot more often. Before I generally finished under the prediction, I attribute it to mash cooling or cold spots in the mash, eliminated now that I'm recirculating throughout the mash and heating to a few tenths of a degree of the set temperature.

I know that many things can affect brew house efficiency including the mash. Mine is set for 58% and while I don’t mind spending a few extra bucks to compensate for the otherwise lower gravity, but it sure would be nice to know what is causing this problem. I don’t recirculate during the mash but I do have a 20 gal SS brewtech mash tun which can hold my mash temperature to a degree over an hour.

 

[BOB357]

Keep in mind that Brewhouse Efficiency considers all of your losses up until the fermenter. Quite often low BHE is due to some of these losses and has nothing to do with your extraction rate. By taking volume and gravity checks throughout the process you can pinpoint where the losses occur and address them directly.
Wondering or speculating about the cause(s) is like chasing your tail. Check the calibration of your thermometer(s) and hydrometer. Check to be sure that any factory markings on your equipment are accurate. Most are not. Once you've verified that your measurements are accurate, look closely at process losses.

 

[The Beerery]

Mashing for a generic time is the wrong way to look at mashing. If you want to hit the proper AA%, you need to track your conversion of beta amylase. Beta is the fermentability driver.

 

[Group W]

Practice, practice, practice, then practice some more. Shouldn’t take long to get good drinkable beer.

 

[Mark Farrall]

Is that 58% efficiency at the end of the mash? I'm sure your answers will be different, but for me I got noticeable increases in efficiency by getting better temperature control of the mash and then adding recirculation. The biggest improvement was milling my own grains. As I'm BIAB I can mill a fair bit finer than traditional mashing.

These are just the points I noticed an improvement. There will have been small improvements along the way that I didn't remember. Which comes back to the Group W prescription, practice, practice...

 

[Markok]

Is that 58% efficiency at the end of the mash? I'm sure your answers will be different, but for me I got noticeable increases in efficiency by getting better temperature control of the mash and then adding recirculation. The biggest improvement was milling my own grains. As I'm BIAB I can mill a fair bit finer than traditional mashing.

These are just the points I noticed an improvement. There will have been small improvements along the way that I didn't remember. Which comes back to the Group W prescription, practice, practice...

Mark I’ve found for example that if my target gravity is 1066, I need to plan a target efficiency of 55%. This adds in a couple of pounds in a 5 gal batch to achieve this target gravity. I don’t mill my own grains so it’s very possible that the problem is here except that I order my grains from 3 or 4 different providers and the end result is usually the same. I check my mash temps against 2 different thermometers so I do t believe that’s the problem and my mash pH is always within the target 5.5-5.2.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I know that many things can affect brew house efficiency including the mash. Mine is set for 58% and while I don’t mind spending a few extra bucks to compensate for the otherwise lower gravity, but it sure would be nice to know what is causing this problem. I don’t recirculate during the mash but I do have a 20 gal SS brewtech mash tun which can hold my mash temperature to a degree over an hour.

Re-circulation can help with extraction, but extraction in the mash has a lot of moving parts. pH plays a huge role, temperature obviously does as well as time. It's also good to know how to target the two main amylase enzymes, beta. and alpha. Each of these enzymes require a different temperature and pH. Generally a lower temperature (143-148F) and a pH of 5.0 to 5.4 will favor the beta enzyme, giving you a more fermentable wort. At this temperature the mash needs to be extended (90-120 minutes) because the beta enzymes require more time to complete the conversion.

The alpha enzymes are targeted by higher temperatures 150-162F and work better when the mash pH is between 5.4 to 5.6. Alpha enzymes produce a less fermentable wort because the resulting sugars are more complex. This also means faster conversion due to "easier work" and the higher temperature which speeds up the chemical process. When I brew I target both to a degree. I lean toward the beta when I want a dryer beer and I lean toward the alpha in less dry beers. This is why I step mash. Start out low for beta and raise the temperature to get some dextrins for some body. pH is sometimes a compromise between the two.

With extraction that low, it maybe that temperature and the grain/liquor are not equal mixed throughout the mash. Some grain could still be trapped in a thick "dough ball", while others are like soup. This keeps not only the temperature uneven, but also the enzymes are not distributed evenly and may even be trapped in the "dough ball". pH is also uneven and acid additions don't get mixed in thoroughly.

Most of these problems could be fixed by re-circulation, if that's your problem.

 

[Markok]

Re-circulation can help with extraction, but extraction in the mash has a lot of moving parts. pH plays a huge role, temperature obviously does as well as time. It's also good to know how to target the two main amylase enzymes, beta. and alpha. Each of these enzymes require a different temperature and pH. Generally a lower temperature (143-148F) and a pH of 5.0 to 5.4 will favor the beta enzyme, giving you a more fermentable wort. At this temperature the mash needs to be extended (90-120 minutes) because the beta enzymes require more time to complete the conversion.

The alpha enzymes are targeted by higher temperatures 150-162F and work better when the mash pH is between 5.4 to 5.6. Alpha enzymes produce a less fermentable wort because the resulting sugars are more complex. This also means faster conversion due to "easier work" and the higher temperature which speeds up the chemical process. When I brew I target both to a degree. I lean toward the beta when I want a dryer beer and I lean toward the alpha in less dry beers. This is why I step mash. Start out low for beta and raise the temperature to get some dextrins for some body. pH is sometimes a compromise between the two.

With extraction that low, it maybe that temperature and the grain/liquor are not equal mixed throughout the mash. Some grain could still be trapped in a thick "dough ball", while others are like soup. This keeps not only the temperature uneven, but also the enzymes are not distributed evenly and may even be trapped in the "dough ball". pH is also uneven and acid additions don't get mixed in thoroughly.

Most of these problems could be fixed by re-circulation, if that's your problem.

A lot to think about. Most beers I brew tend to be less than 10 SRM, a gravity around 1.060, pH 5.3-5.4 & a mash temp from 149-152. I spend a lot of time ensuring there are no dough balls and I target 1.5 qts to 1 lb of grain. I will stir and take another pH reading around the 20 to 30 min mark for a total of 60 min mash. I’m using an SS Brewtech 20 gal mash tun that I’m confident is doing a good job. I should probably consider an iodine test to verify conversion. This I’m not currently doing. What is your experience with verifying conversion or do you not worry about that since your hitting your targets?