Dry hops vs oxidation

[Markok]

Craig, I am new to this website and used BeerSmith before. Just wanted to make a change I guess. I’ve been brewing on and off for 10 years, never seriously, but I’m very impressed with the knowledge of the many brewers on these forums and always learn a lot. I’m looking forward to collaborating with so many of you. Thanks to all of you for your quick and sage responses.

 

[BOB357]

@BOB357
Please don't take offense to my earlier post, you have been very helpful to me these last couple years.

None taken. As I said in an earlier response and indicated with emojis, my initial statement was tongue in cheek, so I didn't think you were referring to it.

 

[BOB357]

As to why, generally it's put down to the larger than normal post boil and dry hop additions and the newer hops themselves. All hops have a bunch of metal ions that are highly oxidative and the newer hops have higher levels. So adding far more hops than previously done adds far more highly oxidative metal ions that has been previously done. So the beer just sucks up any oxygen it's provided and turns that ugly brown colour. There's probably other reasons as well, but this is the one that I hear/read the most often.

Very interesting Mark!

 

[Craigerrr]

Thanks Craigerrr. I appreciate the support. I’ll look forward to your thread.

YW, the thread will take some time though...

 

[GFHomebrew]

Here ya go popped into my subscription feed today. These dudes are in the know

 

[Markok]

Thanks Trialben. That was a great video. I’ve seen these guys before but not on this subject. The biggest takeaway for me was what they refer to as the countdown clock once the dry hop addition occurs. What they were saying was that once the hops are introduced, preferably while the yeast are very active, the beer needs to be racked off those hops about 4 days later even if fermentation is incomplete. They suggest racking to the keg and allowing the fermentation to complete before chilling and pressurizing. As High voltage man suggests a spunding process is taking place. This goes counter to what I’ve done for two IPAs recently. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’ve had success with transferring the containerized hops from the fermenter to the keg and just leave it alone until it’s all gone. I have not experienced any oxidation or grassyness. But this time around I think I’ll follow their suggestion and rack to my serving keg on day 4 or 5.

 

[Craigerrr]

Thanks Trialben. That was a great video. I’ve seen these guys before but not on this subject. The biggest takeaway for me was what they refer to as the countdown clock once the dry hop addition occurs. What they were saying was that once the hops are introduced, preferably while the yeast are very active, the beer needs to be racked off those hops about 4 days later even if fermentation is incomplete. They suggest racking to the keg and allowing the fermentation to complete before chilling and pressurizing. As High voltage man suggests a spunding process is taking place. This goes counter to what I’ve done for two IPAs recently. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’ve had success with transferring the containerized hops from the fermenter to the keg and just leave it alone until it’s all gone. I have not experienced any oxidation or grassyness. But this time around I think I’ll follow their suggestion and rack to my serving keg on day 4 or 5.

This is where using a Kveik yeast strain is most helpful, I use VOSS, it ferments real effing fast. I pitched Saturday evening, and it looks like it is done already. I added dry charge #1 Sunday morning and dry charge #2 this morning. I will check the gravity tomorrow morning, if it is at FG I will crash it, and probably keg it by the end of the week. This puts my hops contact time in their range.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

This is where using a Kveik yeast strain is most helpful, I use VOSS, it ferments real effing fast. I pitched Saturday evening, and it looks like it is done already. I added dry charge #1 Sunday morning and dry charge #2 this morning. I will check the gravity tomorrow morning, if it is at FG I will crash it, and probably keg it by the end of the week. This puts my hops contact time in their range.

How is Voss yeast compare with traditional English/American IPA’s yeasts for flavor? How does it compare to Wyeast 1318?

 

[Markok]

1318 is the yeast I used here. But I will give the Voss a try next time. Craigerrr is the point about using the Voss yeast that since it ferments faster, it will give the wort/beer less time to oxidize?

 

[The Beerery]

Simple. Hops. Added late they bring oxygen to the party and that destroys the beer. It's a fragile style and I have tasted very few good ones.

Not so simple, actually.

Its really manganese and other metals. It's brought to the party, from malts used (oats are SUPER high in it), water, and hops. This along with oxygen intrusion creates fenton and haber-weiss type reactions that super oxidze the beer. Since microbrewers, and homebrewers are typically very lax/poor with cold side oxygen mitigation, it leads to these types of issues. With the proper steps taken, these beers can be as fresh as long as any other beer.

 

[Markok]

I like that it’s a dry yeast for shipping in the summer. I also noticed from their website that the preferred (traditional) temperature is 40°C. What is anyone’s experience with temperatures with Voss?

 

[Craigerrr]

How is Voss yeast compare with traditional English/American IPA’s yeasts for flavor? How does it compare to Wyeast 1318?

I have never used 1318, not sure what that is to be honest.
All I can tell you is that it ferments real fast, prefers higher temperatures, and gave me no off flavors whatsoever.
This from the internet
Voss Kveik is non-phenolic and produces a beer with moderate citrus notes allowing it to pair very well with citrusy and fruity hops. This strain is not fast at the low end of the range so don't be afraid to pitch at temperatures in the middle to upper part of the range. Ferments between 68-98° F.

1318 is the yeast I used here. But I will give the Voss a try next time. Craigerrr is the point about using the Voss yeast that since it ferments faster, it will give the wort/beer less time to oxidize?

The advantage of the quick ferment is helping to get the hops in while fermentation is vigorous, and at the same time keeping the dry hop contact time from going past that magical 4-5 days that the Genus Brewing guys were talking about. There is also the advantage of being able to ferment at higher temperatures which is great if you don't have temperature control. Not to mention the shorter time from grain to glass. The first time I used the VOSS on my 4.3% Hazy I was pouring from the Keg in 8 days, the aroma and flavor knocked my socks off!!!

 

[Group W]

Here ya go popped into my subscription feed today. These dudes are in the know

Thanks Ben!!! These are excellent tips for any IPA (hazy or clear). I make mostly IPAs and these are practices I use regularly. Oxidation is an easy problem to overcome. Other off flavors, like astringency, diacetyl, skunkyness are just as important.

Markok, per your OP, I think you are right on. I like to DH a WCIPA at the start of day 4 in the fermenter while fermentation is active. For a hazy day 3 & 5. I like to cold crash on day 8 and keg on day 11. Like they said in the video, you don’t need a huge dose of DH. Your choice of 5 oz is as high as I would go. I use 2 oz in a WCIPA and there is plenty flavor and aroma. The whirlpool is where the magic happens. An addition at FO, 170* and 150* should easily get 40 IBUs with no more than 30 minutes exposure. As for yeast, a medium flocculating yeast and a healthy pitch rate will make a great NEIPA.
Cheers

 

[GFHomebrew]

I like that it’s a dry yeast for shipping in the summer. I also noticed from their website that the preferred (traditional) temperature is 40°C. What is anyone’s experience with temperatures with Voss?

I have fermented Voss Kviek at 40c let just say it got the job done. But mostly it's a 39c ferment just incase the internal wort temp spikes and may kill the yeast but it seems nothing can kill this stuff.

I rekon a great kviek yeast for this NEIPA style would be Hornindal.
1 it stays Hazy longer than Voss I find.
2 it's luscious tropical fruit flavours it throws complements most the new world hops you throw at them
3 it's ferment time is pretty quick you just gotta give it some TLC after consecutive pitches like some yeast nutrient it works it self into the ground.

I also rekon for fermenting this NEIPA style you can't go past one or these new Bubble fermentors I'm sure they were designed with this lo do cold side oxidation closed transfers in mind.

 

[Markok]

Trialben, I like what I’m reading about your Hornindal suggestion. I would say the only advantage that Voss has over Hornindal is that it’s a dry yeast which doesn’t require a starter and travels well in the mail during the summer months.

I have a Fermonster fermenter and I thought I’d pass along the results of something I tried this morning on my nearly finished beer. It’s in day 4 now of fermentation and has reached a gravity of 1.018 (OG 1.062). Tomorrow I will transfer it to the keg and allow it to finish out at 73°f for a few more days. I will do a positive pressure transfer with CO2. The primary purpose of this is to get the beer off the 4 plus oz of dry hops. I won’t need to do another transfer because it will already be the the serving keg. What I tried this morning that was different from anything I’ve tried before is that I connected CO2 (3/8 ID tubing) to the spigot at the bottom of the fermenter, turned the gas to 20 PSI then opened the drain on the spigot. There was sufficient pressure to overcome the liquid from draining out but not too much that it would cause an explosive gas flow. In the future if I wished to leave the beer in contact with the dry hops more than 4-5 days, I would consider this technique to keep O2 from infiltrating the head space as the beer reaches terminal gravity.

 

[Craigerrr]

Trialben, I like what I’m reading about your Hornindal suggestion. I would say the only advantage that Voss has over Hornindal is that it’s a dry yeast which doesn’t require a starter and travels well in the mail during the summer months.

I have a Fermonster fermenter and I thought I’d pass along the results of something I tried this morning on my nearly finished beer. It’s in day 4 now of fermentation and has reached a gravity of 1.018 (OG 1.062). Tomorrow I will transfer it to the keg and allow it to finish out at 73°f for a few more days. I will do a positive pressure transfer with CO2. The primary purpose of this is to get the beer off the 4 plus oz of dry hops. I won’t need to do another transfer because it will already be the the serving keg. What I tried this morning that was different from anything I’ve tried before is that I connected CO2 (3/8 ID tubing) to the spigot at the bottom of the fermenter, turned the gas to 20 PSI then opened the drain on the spigot. There was sufficient pressure to overcome the liquid from draining out but not too much that it would cause an explosive gas flow. In the future if I wished to leave the beer in contact with the dry hops more than 4-5 days, I would consider this technique to keep O2 from infiltrating the head space as the beer reaches terminal gravity.

Interesting idea to maybe increase the hop mixing in the beer. A check valve in that Co2 line might be a prudent idea just in case pressure isn't balanced.

 

[Markok]

BTW this is the way I perform my positive pressure transfers.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Trialben, I like what I’m reading about your Hornindal suggestion. I would say the only advantage that Voss has over Hornindal is that it’s a dry yeast which doesn’t require a starter and travels well in the mail during the summer months.

I have a Fermonster fermenter and I thought I’d pass along the results of something I tried this morning on my nearly finished beer. It’s in day 4 now of fermentation and has reached a gravity of 1.018 (OG 1.062). Tomorrow I will transfer it to the keg and allow it to finish out at 73°f for a few more days. I will do a positive pressure transfer with CO2. The primary purpose of this is to get the beer off the 4 plus oz of dry hops. I won’t need to do another transfer because it will already be the the serving keg. What I tried this morning that was different from anything I’ve tried before is that I connected CO2 (3/8 ID tubing) to the spigot at the bottom of the fermenter, turned the gas to 20 PSI then opened the drain on the spigot. There was sufficient pressure to overcome the liquid from draining out but not too much that it would cause an explosive gas flow. In the future if I wished to leave the beer in contact with the dry hops more than 4-5 days, I would consider this technique to keep O2 from infiltrating the head space as the beer reaches terminal gravity.

Depends me old mate . I'm on gen 9 on that hornindal gen 6-7 on Voss my view is once you've got it you can repitch for a fair bit.
Remember though that kviek require far fewer starting cell count like a teaspoon of yeast slurry is suffice.

I'd almost go as far to say you probably don't need to pitch all your dry yeast satchet If it's an 11g one.

Love your transfer method.
Have you tried sending the fermentation gas through the keg? You could connect the air lock line to the liquid post then lift PRV valve on keg and purge recieving keg. No positive pressure will build up in the system then.

 

[Craigerrr]

I saw a video a while back where after purging the keg with Co2, the guy connected the gas out post to the top of the fermenter. Thus, as the keg filled and the Co2 was pushed out it was directed back into the top of the fermenter. It was a gravity transfer, but still a closed transfer.

 

[BOB357]

I saw a video a while back where after purging the keg with Co2, the guy connected the gas out post to the top of the fermenter. Thus, as the keg filled and the Co2 was pushed out it was directed back into the top of the fermenter. It was a gravity transfer, but still a closed transfer.

Definitely a viable option for fermenters that don't support pressurization. If I had a problem with oxidation, would be doing that for sure.