bottle conditioning

[Minbari]

I've got the CO2 bottle and regulator, but it has the tri-lock connectors. So yeah, gonna need all ball-lock fittings for that. It's actually still got 1000 PSI charge in it. Got a fridge in the basement garage, but despite the stated purpose being for the brewing, it seems to have caught the overflow from Thanksgiving leftovers. Between that and having just put today's ingredient purchase in there, I don't think there's room for ONE keg, LOL. Problem next is that it's one of the new-fangled ones with the freezer drawer low, and barn-door type doors on the top section. BTW, did I mention I got a $2500 refrigerator for free? I don't think it's more than a couple years old. I can probably lift a 5 gallon keg, but neither my back nor my orthopedist is gonna like it if I do.

As for being 'fastidious' about leaks, I HATE leaks. A leak says I didn't do a good job making sure that the vessel was sealed. That's a reflection on me, not the hardware. My days building swimming pools probably made me pretty 'fastidious' about sealing things up. I know it's hard to have quick disconnects that don't leak, and will have to deal with it as I go, but I'll devise a way to pressure test everything before I use it. Preferably at 2X the pressure I'm going to use it at. I do have an air compressor as well, which should save me a few pennies on CO2 for pressure checks when I prep a vessel for storage.

I've still got a lot to learn about how much CO2 versus headspace in the vessel versus beer style, etc, etc. The objective is to LEARN it though, then enhance as I go. I'm thinking 'half-kegs' simply for the purpose of being able to put at least two brews in the fridge next to the homemade wine and the smoked turkey and the homemade strawberry sponge cake, ......... I always get in the last two words with the missus, though. "Yes dear."

I'd like to get to the point so that I can have a couple or three different brews available, yet not taking up quite so much space. I could probably do smaller batches to solve that problem too, but they take just as long to ferment as large batches. So, I do 5 gallon batches of anything I do, unless I REALLY like it, then I do TWO batches for 10 gallons. It's a PITA to wash that many bottles. Because of the labor in the bottling, as well as temperature control issues, I tend to push out the next batch. But, I've got it figured that I can do some batches that are less critical with temperature control simultaneously as the more advanced recipes that require it by hiding bucket fermenters in the garage closet. That would also let me see if I can taste the difference by doing a side-by-side on the fermentation process.

I already know that the hardware is pricy. I've been looking. Hoping Santa Claus is good to me this year, but I've been told over and over "A lump of coal and a bag of switches" is all I should expect.

Just fyi, co2 in a cylinder is in liquid form. The gauge will read 800-1000psi (temp dependent) until about 5 secs before it runs out.

 

[Ward Chillington]

I will say that in my short time bottling, I have had a few beers that tasted significantly smoother two months after bottling compared to the beer at 2 weeks.

There's a lot to be said for conditioning...if I could only keep my hands off the bottles for long enough! Like older poeple...it mellows.

 

[Kekkec]

There's a lot to be said for conditioning...if I could only keep my hands off the bottles for long enough! Like older poeple...it mellows.

Then again, depends on what type you're conditioning. A two month conditioned lager is pretty good. A four month conditioned Stout probably even better. A 2 month conditioned neipa/dipa/xipa is for the guests.

 

[MaxStout]

I don't have the best self control when it comes to waiting for bottles to be ready. I'm always tempted to try one at ~2 weeks, and sometimes end up with a glass of semi-flat beer.

But it's still beer and I'll drink it.

 

[RoadRoach]

Oooh! I like switches. And with the price of coal...

Not sure we were talking about the same kinda switches. I was referring to the ones my grandmother gave circle dance lessons with. That was NOT a dance you wanted to learn, and if you did wind up learning it, it did NOT take many lessons.

Head space: I fill my keg until beer comes out the gas port* which leaves about an inch of space. Plenty.

I was more referring to volumes of CO2 in the beer. Not quite sure I've got my head wrapped around that calculation yet. I know that beer style affects the target, and headspace and pressure affect reaching it. What size batch (exactly, not nominally) do you typically make to fill a keg in that manner? I'm sure there's a balancing act so that you don't have wasted beer (or wort if you're fermenting in the keg too).

Carrying anything to the cellar is too far. 'Cept maybe an empty glass.

Agreed, 100%. This is one of the reasons I moved my brewing/fermenting operation out to the tractor shed. Now there's only one trip up the stairs with the bottling bucket because I prefer bottling in the kitchen (because the missus helps if I do it inside). When it gets to the kitchen, the washed bottles are waiting, and everything I still need to wash is out in the tractor shed with 100+ PSI water pressure waiting for it. I just step out the door, and VOILA!, I don't have to worry about getting anything wet.

And, finally, leaks happen but are not typical. The ball-lock connectors are pretty good at not leaking.

Yeah, they're not much different from the QD's on my tractor. Those hold back 2500 PSI hydraulic pressure with no drips. I was more referring to clamped or threaded connections. Teflon thread tape and RTV are your friends.

(*You fill kegs from the liquid port, venting via the gas port. Dispensing goes the other direction.

Makes perfect sense. No splashing after the liquid is above the bottom of the fill tube, not to mention it ain't gonna fill up with the lid on if you try to do it via the gas port. Gotta displace gas with the liquid. HOWEVER, if you use a floating pickup, doesn't that splash all the way to the top?

 

[RoadRoach]

Just fyi, co2 in a cylinder is in liquid form. The gauge will read 800-1000psi (temp dependent) until about 5 secs before it runs out.

Understood, completely. Not my first rodeo with CO2. That it still had a charge at all is what surprised me. The bottle has been in my step-son's attic for about 3 years. I know I need to weigh it go figure out how much it's actually got in it. Need to know the weight of the bottle too, though. Guess I could get my LHBS to weigh a new empty for me.

 

[RoadRoach]

Then again, depends on what type you're conditioning. A two month conditioned lager is pretty good. A four month conditioned Stout probably even better. A 2 month conditioned neipa/dipa/xipa is for the guests.

It also depends on the kind of old people.

 

[Minbari]

Understood, completely. Not my first rodeo with CO2. That it still had a charge at all is what surprised me. The bottle has been in my step-son's attic for about 3 years. I know I need to weigh it go figure out how much it's actually got in it. Need to know the weight of the bottle too, though. Guess I could get my LHBS to weigh a new empty for me.

Cool, allot people don't realize that little fact. Gauge on those really doesn't do much

 

[MaxStout]

CO2 gauge: "There's some CO2 in there," or "there's no CO2 in there and you need to get more."

Only way to quantify is to weigh it and subtract the tare wt.

 

[FrostyBeach]

I know I need to weigh it go figure out how much it's actually got in it. Need to know the weight of the bottle too, though.

The tare weight is stamped into CO2 cylinders.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

If I wasn't brewing back to back like I do, I'd simply put the cases of bottles in my ferm chamber and set it to 72 or so. I've thought about building a plywood "warm room" box with a small heater and temp control. Maybe time for a DIY project....

I normally bottle one weekend and brew the next. So when the basement is chilly, I'll put the bottles in the fermentation chamber and set the ambient temp to 72°F(22°C). Gives the yeast a week to comfortably do their thing. Then it's back into the chilly basement (55°F-60°F)(13°C-15.5°C). If I had the room in the basement I would build a conditioning box for the winter months.

 

[RoadRoach]

I normally bottle one weekend and brew the next. So when the basement is chilly, I'll put the bottles in the fermentation chamber and set the ambient temp to 72°F(22°C). Gives the yeast a week to comfortably do their thing. Then it's back into the chilly basement (55°F-60°F)(13°C-15.5°C). If I had the room in the basement I would build a conditioning box for the winter months.

You just gave me an idea for an unused closet in my garage ..... It would also put the packaged beer closer to the beverage fridge, and open up a little better stacking room for the new crates. Assuming I haven't already done something with it and completely forgotten it.

 

[MaxStout]

I've been thinking about the conditioning enclosure thing. I need to dial in conditioning temps in winter, as the room temp yo-yos several degrees between day and night.

I could build a box large enough to hold 4 cases (I often have 2 brews overlapping in time). Set it up to have spacers between the cases for airflow. I'd go cheap--a sheet of OSB, a hinged lid, maybe casters to move it around. Don't know if I'd even need to insulate it, as it's only keeping the beer a few degrees above the room's temp. A cheap controller, like an STC-1000/Inkbird, etc., and a small heating device. Seedling mats, reptile heater, elec blanket, etc. Run a computer fan inside to move air around for consistency. Would only need the heating stage--run the probe inside one of the cases. Set it to a min. temp, when the temps goes below that it heats up, then turns off and if it overshoots a few degrees, no biggie

In the summer, I can just use the box to store stuff.

 

[RoadRoach]

I've been thinking about the conditioning enclosure thing. I need to dial in conditioning temps in winter, as the room temp yo-yos several degrees between day and night.

I could build a box large enough to hold 4 cases (I often have 2 brews overlapping in time). Set it up to have spacers between the cases for airflow. I'd go cheap--a sheet of OSB, a hinged lid, maybe casters to move it around. Don't know if I'd even need to insulate it, as it's only keeping the beer a few degrees above the room's temp. A cheap controller, like an STC-1000/Inkbird, etc., and a small heating device. Seedling mats, reptile heater, elec blanket, etc. Run a computer fan inside to move air around for consistency. Would only need the heating stage--run the probe inside one of the cases. Set it to a min. temp, when the temps goes below that it heats up, then turns off and if it overshoots a few degrees, no biggie

In the summer, I can just use the box to store stuff.

Exactly what I do for heating in my fermenting chamber. I built a forced air heater with a fan and heater I bought from Amazon. I THINK I have a picture of it somewhere. It's a 300W heater, but VERY compact in size. I think the fan is 4 inch, IIRC. I built a box so that it can only pull air in from one side, and blow through the heater (no heat on the fan motor), and it warms my fermenting freezer up pretty quickly, though I wouldn't call it overkill. Just ordered the second ITC-1000 today.

 

[MaxStout]

I spotted a neat little 200W space heater on Amazon. Its fan is fairly weak but I could mount it on one end of the box and use a small computer fan on the other end to draw the heated air through the box. 200W would be plenty of heat for a small enclosure when I'm only maintaining a few degrees above ambient.

 

[Ward Chillington]

I'm always tempted to try one at ~2 weeks, and sometimes end up with a glass of semi-flat beer.

That's not temptation. That's for science !

 

[Donoroto]

I spotted a neat little 200W space heater on Amazon. Its fan is fairly weak but I could mount it on one end of the box and use a small computer fan on the other end to draw the heated air through the box. 200W would be plenty of heat for a small enclosure when I'm only maintaining a few degrees above ambient.

200 Watts is major overkill. I suggest trying a 25 watt incandescent first, I think you'll be surprised just how much heat that delivers.

 

[Donoroto]

Not sure we were talking about the same kinda switches. I was referring to the ones my grandmother gave circle dance lessons with. That was NOT a dance you wanted to learn, and if you did wind up learning it, it did NOT take many lessons.


I was more referring to volumes of CO2 in the beer. Not quite sure I've got my head wrapped around that calculation yet. I know that beer style affects the target, and headspace and pressure affect reaching it. What size batch (exactly, not nominally) do you typically make to fill a keg in that manner? I'm sure there's a balancing act so that you don't have wasted beer (or wort if you're fermenting in the keg too).

Agreed, 100%. This is one of the reasons I moved my brewing/fermenting operation out to the tractor shed. Now there's only one trip up the stairs with the bottling bucket because I prefer bottling in the kitchen (because the missus helps if I do it inside). When it gets to the kitchen, the washed bottles are waiting, and everything I still need to wash is out in the tractor shed with 100+ PSI water pressure waiting for it. I just step out the door, and VOILA!, I don't have to worry about getting anything wet.


Yeah, they're not much different from the QD's on my tractor. Those hold back 2500 PSI hydraulic pressure with no drips. I was more referring to clamped or threaded connections. Teflon thread tape and RTV are your friends.


Makes perfect sense. No splashing after the liquid is above the bottom of the fill tube, not to mention it ain't gonna fill up with the lid on if you try to do it via the gas port. Gotta displace gas with the liquid. HOWEVER, if you use a floating pickup, doesn't that splash all the way to the top?

Ah: Willow switches. I was thinking along the lines of SPDT. That's the engineer showing through.....

Carbonation volumes is very simple: At temperature T, a pressure P gives XX volumes of dissolved CO2. There's charts on the Interweb, go download one.

I target a fermenter volume of 5.5 gallons to fill a 5-gallon keg. Sometimes I'm a bit short - so what. I stop filling when foamy liquid starts spurting out the gas port. A little waste doesn't get wasted: I use that for my hydrometer if it's not too cloudy, or put it in a PET soda bottle and carbonate it in there (they sell a gas port that screws on, making carbonation easy). Or I just sip a little to verify it hasn't spoiled. Or all three.

If you have a floating dip tube, it works the same in practice as a non-floating one during filling.It is submerged in the liquid always! I don't bother with those, I just cut 1/2" off the rigid dip tube to leave the little bit of trub at the bottom of the keg.

Also note that the gas dip tube is usually 1.5" long or so, guaranteeing head space. You do want some.

 

[MaxStout]

200 Watts is major overkill. I suggest trying a 25 watt incandescent first, I think you'll be surprised just how much heat that delivers.

Good point and I have been thinking about that heat source. The 200W heater would be way too much. By comparison, I use a 25W infrared reptile heating bulb in a 7 cu ft chest freezer ferm chamber, and it's plenty of heat, even when the outside temp in my garage is much colder. Of course, the freezer has good insulation. But the inside vs outside delta-T can be 40 degrees or more.

I decided the 200W source would ramp up temps too fast and result in the air becoming much hotter than the bottles (which have greater thermal mass). Sort of like grilling a steak too hot and having it burned on the outside and undercooked inside. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 20W seedling mat. Gradual heat that brings it to temp then just enough to maintain a temp a bit above room ambient.

I see that plywood prices have come down a lot recently. I could build the box with one 4x8 sheet of 1/2" ply, an Inkbird, seedling mat and computer fan for <$100. Good project for this winter.

 

[FrostyBeach]

I'm thinking more along the lines of a 20W seedling mat.

I use one of those to heat my stainless fermenter with no other insulation. Just some hook and loop straps to hold it on the outside and it works great connected to an inkbird wifi.