This
bottle conditioning
- Thread starter Zambi
- Start date
My understanding is that yeast will eat corn sugar faster than table sugar, as the former is a monosaccharide and the latter a disaccharide. Don't know if that's brewing urban legend, but I could understand if it takes a bit longer for the yeasties to consume those bigger molecules.
For the chill haze, maybe it's polyphenols. I've had trouble with it in beers where I used large amounts of low-alpha hops, particularly Fuggles. And that's even despite using Whirlfloc. There are other fining agents that better target polyphenols, though I've never tried any. Polyclar is one that comes to mind. I've only used Whirlfloc or Irish moss, which seem to have limited effect on reducing chill haze.
- Joined
- May 14, 2020
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 577
- Points
- 93
You are spot on @MaxStout, corn sugar is a simple sugar compared to table sugar. Corn sugar is closer to the sugars that come from the grain when making beer (or other similar things that originate from grain).
Chill haze can also be contributed to long protein chains from non-milled grains in your grist, like flaked wheat or flaked oats. The same is true for less modified grains like Munich malts. Funny, was just reading an article last night on doing a protein rest when brewing. I want to increase the amount of flake oats in my Oatmeal Stout and was thinking of adding a protein rest at the begging of my mash.
Good point, proteins from the grain can add to the problem. Whirlpooling to drop out some cold break before racking should help. I still get some haze in certain beers despite that. Probably a combination of remaining grain-based proteins + hops effects. The most noticeable one for me was a UK-type barleywine I brewed a couple years back and used a shiatload of Fuggles.
I've never done a protein rest; I'm curious to hear how it works for you.
As I said, though, the wort was crystal clear when it went into the fermenter, before pitching. I didn’t notice anything abnormal during fermentation for the color, but since the fermenter is opaque, I couldn’t see if it was cloudy. It seems to have clouded after/during cold crash, which points at chill haze from protein. Checked the bottles today and they’re still cloudy. Really hoping I didn’t ruin a batch. It tasted like a flat brown beer when I pulled the sample for gravity check. I normally taste test the sample after I check gravity. No point in wasting caps and clean bottles on a bad batch.
- Joined
- May 14, 2020
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 577
- Points
- 93
I have had lots of cloudy beers, but have yet to have any that tasted bad. For the most part I just make note of it and move on. I have only recently started reading on some of the causes. A prime example if the Oktoberfest I just brewed. The last one came out crystal clear, this one not so much. The big difference with this batch is that I bottled and then cold crashed / lagered in the bottle. Taste amazing, will probably not bottle before I lager again.
- Joined
- May 14, 2020
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 577
- Points
- 93
I will try and make a note to track more info and pass it on. The only problem with a protein rest is all the added time.
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2021
- Messages
- 3,952
- Reaction score
- 5,894
- Points
- 113
I almost always do a protein rest. 15 minutes well worth it. only thing that really add time (other than the rest itself) is the extra time to heat your mash to sacc rest temp
this is my octoberfest hard to see it, but clear as a bell, you can see the lamp iron-work through it.
- Joined
- May 14, 2020
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 577
- Points
- 93
Unfortunately mine came out a bit under carbonated, miscalculated and didn't add the correct amount of priming sugar. Bottled a month ago so I could lager in the bottle to open up a fermenter. Beer was hazy when it went in the bottle, and I just assumed it wouldn't clear up. This is the first one I have opened since it went in the cooler, very happy to see it is clear after a month. Glass etching is on the other side of the glass.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 4,375
- Reaction score
- 10,417
- Points
- 113
But why 3 weeks?
And why at that temperature?
What is the effect of a higher carbonation temperature? And shorter time?
Inquiring minds want to know
70F degrees is recommended for ale yeasts that ferment in the 65-68F range. You're using yeasts that are hotter than that, so you can bottle condition hotter. Just stay close to your yeast's recommended temperature
3 weeks is recommended to fully carbonate and condition the beer. It gets better with time. Is the beer drinkable before then? Probably. But it will be best at 3 weeks.
Leave a few bottles at 3 weeks Zambezi and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, who cares it's your beer anyway
- Joined
- May 17, 2020
- Messages
- 28
- Reaction score
- 94
- Points
- 13
I don't know, has to be a personal preference. I dont think my palate can destinguish between 14 or 21 days of carbonization period. I've tried beers that were carbonated within 5 days, and they were fine. I started sticking to 14 days and then straight to fridge.
Mind you i've only been bottling and bottle conditioning for the past 3 years, both with table sugar, brown sugar and a few different carbonization drops, so what the hell do I know.
- Joined
- May 14, 2020
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 577
- Points
- 93
I would agree with the inability to tell the difference in carbonization between 2 or 3 weeks. I will say that in my short time bottling, I have had a few beers that tasted significantly smoother two months after bottling compared to the beer at 2 weeks. But like you, I have only been bottling for a couple of years.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2019
- Messages
- 4,375
- Reaction score
- 10,417
- Points
- 113
Thanks all
I'm going to be experimenting
It's all a bit of a toss up to what is recommended and what is practically possible. But that doesn't mean that it isn't worth trying.
The fridge I currently use just fits my 12 ltr Speidel fermenter. I can obviously use it for bottle conditioning but then I have no brew on the go for 3 weeks.
That's my dilemma
But maybe I can squeeze 2 bottles in with the fermenter and compare those with my cooler box conditioning..
As we say here: we'll make a plan
And @Kekkec : welcome!
I'm going to be experimenting
It's all a bit of a toss up to what is recommended and what is practically possible. But that doesn't mean that it isn't worth trying.
The fridge I currently use just fits my 12 ltr Speidel fermenter. I can obviously use it for bottle conditioning but then I have no brew on the go for 3 weeks.
That's my dilemma
But maybe I can squeeze 2 bottles in with the fermenter and compare those with my cooler box conditioning..
As we say here: we'll make a plan
And @Kekkec : welcome!
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2022
- Messages
- 1,963
- Reaction score
- 3,209
- Points
- 113
I don't think there is much difference between the carbonation at two or three weeks. There IS a definite difference in taste if you let the beer sit for another week or two cold conditioning.
I've seen/had beers that fully carbonate within 4-5 days, but the carbolic acid taste from the fresh activity was not very nice, and certainly not something I wanted. The alcohol seems very 'raw' too, because the yeast actually makes more alcohol (a little) as it ferments the priming sugar. It's a very different bitter from the hops, and not pleasing at all. As for taste after 2 weeks, I haven't noticed a difference, but I may not have the palate to consider myself a judge for anyone except myself. To check, I invert a bottle to see how much yeast there is in the bottom and if I see any bubbles rise from the beer. If it's carbed, I'll try it. If it's good when I try it, I start drinking it. I don't set a calendar event for it. I typically wait at least a week before I check them, and as described above, a little longer now that I'm using cane sugar for the priming. I might go back to corn sugar just for the 2-3 day gain on the carbing. I'm likely to move to kegs before long, if I can find something that makes sense for the storage that I have. I'm thinking mini-kegs or something with a short profile at least so I can store them on the shelf, and use a CO2 right to carb them up a couple days before I put 'em in the fridge for drinking. That gets rid of a couple handling steps as well, not to mention the bottle washing which is no small task. I make my beer for me, so enjoy it when I think it's ready. The bottling phase has become my least favorite activity because it's so slow and creates way too many points of infection.
A used fridge can hold a few 5-gallon kegs. I've seen them as cheap as free.
You'll want to carbonate them immediately. If you are fastidious about small leaks you won't need to keep it on CO2, but don't let it go or stay flat. Once carbonated it can be kept at room temperature if necessary, good for months or more.
Just beware: it is a slippery slope. Used kegs are ~$50, CO2 bottles $75* and regulator about the same. Add $50 for fittings and such.
*You can get one far cheaper, keep your eyes open. Check facebook marketplace, Craig's list, etc.
I think ambient temperature during conditioning can make a difference of when bottles are ready. In summer, when my house is consistently well into the 70s, I find my beers are usually ready in 2 weeks. At least the moderate gravity ones; high gravity beers are a different animal.
In winter, my house is set to about 68 by day and cooler at night. It takes at least 3 weeks for full carbonation. I keep them in the mechanical room in the basement (where the furnace is), so it's a few degrees warmer when the furnace runs. I keep a thermometer there, and it ranges from about 64-70F.
If I wasn't brewing back to back like I do, I'd simply put the cases of bottles in my ferm chamber and set it to 72 or so. I've thought about building a plywood "warm room" box with a small heater and temp control. Maybe time for a DIY project....
In winter, my house is set to about 68 by day and cooler at night. It takes at least 3 weeks for full carbonation. I keep them in the mechanical room in the basement (where the furnace is), so it's a few degrees warmer when the furnace runs. I keep a thermometer there, and it ranges from about 64-70F.
If I wasn't brewing back to back like I do, I'd simply put the cases of bottles in my ferm chamber and set it to 72 or so. I've thought about building a plywood "warm room" box with a small heater and temp control. Maybe time for a DIY project....
I've got the CO2 bottle and regulator, but it has the tri-lock connectors. So yeah, gonna need all ball-lock fittings for that. It's actually still got 1000 PSI charge in it. Got a fridge in the basement garage, but despite the stated purpose being for the brewing, it seems to have caught the overflow from Thanksgiving leftovers.
Between that and having just put today's ingredient purchase in there, I don't think there's room for ONE keg, LOL. Problem next is that it's one of the new-fangled ones with the freezer drawer low, and barn-door type doors on the top section. BTW, did I mention I got a $2500 refrigerator for free? I don't think it's more than a couple years old. I can probably lift a 5 gallon keg, but neither my back nor my orthopedist is gonna like it if I do. As for being 'fastidious' about leaks, I HATE leaks. A leak says I didn't do a good job making sure that the vessel was sealed. That's a reflection on me, not the hardware. My days building swimming pools probably made me pretty 'fastidious' about sealing things up. I know it's hard to have quick disconnects that don't leak, and will have to deal with it as I go, but I'll devise a way to pressure test everything before I use it. Preferably at 2X the pressure I'm going to use it at. I do have an air compressor as well, which should save me a few pennies on CO2 for pressure checks when I prep a vessel for storage.
I've still got a lot to learn about how much CO2 versus headspace in the vessel versus beer style, etc, etc. The objective is to LEARN it though, then enhance as I go. I'm thinking 'half-kegs' simply for the purpose of being able to put at least two brews in the fridge next to the homemade wine and the smoked turkey and the homemade strawberry sponge cake, ......... I always get in the last two words with the missus, though. "Yes dear."
I'd like to get to the point so that I can have a couple or three different brews available, yet not taking up quite so much space. I could probably do smaller batches to solve that problem too, but they take just as long to ferment as large batches. So, I do 5 gallon batches of anything I do, unless I REALLY like it, then I do TWO batches for 10 gallons. It's a PITA to wash that many bottles. Because of the labor in the bottling, as well as temperature control issues, I tend to push out the next batch. But, I've got it figured that I can do some batches that are less critical with temperature control simultaneously as the more advanced recipes that require it by hiding bucket fermenters in the garage closet. That would also let me see if I can taste the difference by doing a side-by-side on the fermentation process.
I already know that the hardware is pricy. I've been looking. Hoping Santa Claus is good to me this year, but I've been told over and over "A lump of coal and a bag of switches" is all I should expect.
Oooh! I like switches. And with the price of coal...I've got the CO2 bottle and regulator, but it has the tri-lock connectors. So yeah, gonna need all ball-lock fittings for that. It's actually still got 1000 PSI charge in it. Got a fridge in the basement garage, but despite the stated purpose being for the brewing, it seems to have caught the overflow from Thanksgiving leftovers.
As for being 'fastidious' about leaks, I HATE leaks. A leak says I didn't do a good job making sure that the vessel was sealed. That's a reflection on me, not the hardware. My days building swimming pools probably made me pretty 'fastidious' about sealing things up. I know it's hard to have quick disconnects that don't leak, and will have to deal with it as I go, but I'll devise a way to pressure test everything before I use it. Preferably at 2X the pressure I'm going to use it at. I do have an air compressor as well, which should save me a few pennies on CO2 for pressure checks when I prep a vessel for storage.
I've still got a lot to learn about how much CO2 versus headspace in the vessel versus beer style, etc, etc. The objective is to LEARN it though, then enhance as I go. I'm thinking 'half-kegs' simply for the purpose of being able to put at least two brews in the fridge next to the homemade wine and the smoked turkey and the homemade strawberry sponge cake, ......... I always get in the last two words with the missus, though. "Yes dear."
I'd like to get to the point so that I can have a couple or three different brews available, yet not taking up quite so much space. I could probably do smaller batches to solve that problem too, but they take just as long to ferment as large batches. So, I do 5 gallon batches of anything I do, unless I REALLY like it, then I do TWO batches for 10 gallons. It's a PITA to wash that many bottles. Because of the labor in the bottling, as well as temperature control issues, I tend to push out the next batch. But, I've got it figured that I can do some batches that are less critical with temperature control simultaneously as the more advanced recipes that require it by hiding bucket fermenters in the garage closet. That would also let me see if I can taste the difference by doing a side-by-side on the fermentation process.
I already know that the hardware is pricy. I've been looking. Hoping Santa Claus is good to me this year, but I've been told over and over "A lump of coal and a bag of switches" is all I should expect.
Head space: I fill my keg until beer comes out the gas port* which leaves about an inch of space. Plenty.
Carrying anything to the cellar is too far. 'Cept maybe an empty glass.
And, finally, leaks happen but are not typical. The ball-lock connectors are pretty good at not leaking.
(*You fill kegs from the liquid port, venting via the gas port. Dispensing goes the other direction.
