Kolsch v Kolsch

[Bigbre04]

hey all,

I think that i will brew a kolsch as my next beer. I have 2 different recipes. one more "american" than the other. Which would you brew next?

Simpler more traditional(probably my preference since i have not used this yeast before)
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1540299

More complicated.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1510348

I think that both are good recipes, but I am kind of leaning towards the top one. what would you edit/change with each recipe?

 

[Bigbre04]

I also have Apricot and Blood orange on hand that could go in here too, but im leaning towards the clean clear option

 

[dmtaylor]

The only thing "Kolsch" about those is the yeast. Regardless of style, I'd brew the one you think you would rather drink. Both will be tasty I'm sure.

 

[Bigbre04]

The only thing "Kolsch" about those is the yeast. Regardless of style, I'd brew the one you think you would rather drink. Both will be tasty I'm sure.

very interesting that you would say that. What is the reasoning for that?

 

[J A]

I agree with @dmtaylor ...you're not really brewing a Kolsch as much as a Blonde Ale.

Kolsch is a simple German style that's essentially a lager grist - Pilsner, Pilsner and more Pilsner and a little Vienna for rich flavor and a touch of color. In my earlier efforts, I used a little wheat malt but have long since gotten away from that. Whatever Dextrapils is doing, you can probably accomplish by adjusting your mash schedule. Hops should be nobel hops and kept relatively simple. There are some "new world" hops that can do good things and your Loral is a solid choice but I'd avoid the piney influence of CTZ. Bitter with Magnum - it'll give you nice complex herbal/floral notes and very, very smooth bittering.
As for Apricot or Blood Orange, save them for your Witbier and DIPA.

If you're working with batches that big, you know what you're doing so brew on and let us know how it turns out. Kolsch in the US has become a sort of catch-all style like Cream Ale. By every criteria it should be nearly indistinguishable from a basic lager but very often, it ends up being something quite different.

 

[Bigbre04]

I agree with @dmtaylor ...you're not really brewing a Kolsch as much as a Blonde Ale.

Kolsch is a simple German style that's essentially a lager grist - Pilsner, Pilsner and more Pilsner and a little Vienna for rich flavor and a touch of color. In my earlier efforts, I used a little wheat malt but have long since gotten away from that. Whatever Dextrapils is doing, you can probably accomplish by adjusting your mash schedule. Hops should be nobel hops and kept relatively simple. There are some "new world" hops that can do good things and your Loral is a solid choice but I'd avoid the piney influence of CTZ. Bitter with Magnum - it'll give you nice complex herbal/floral notes and very, very smooth bittering.
As for Apricot or Blood Orange, save them for your Witbier and DIPA.

If you're working with batches that big, you know what you're doing so brew on and let us know how it turns out. Kolsch in the US has become a sort of catch-all style like Cream Ale. By every criteria it should be nearly indistinguishable from a basic lager but very often, it ends up being something quite different.

I use 2r. IMO its a better malt for general brewing. I have compared 2 of the exact same recipes side by side, one with pils and one with 2r and not been able to tell a difference. generally 2r is a little cheaper and has a higher DP. I also buy 2r by the pallet so it is what i have, no reason to buy separate ingredients for single batches.

I compared a bunch of different recipes on the interwebs and they all have base malt and a touch of vienna. many of them had added carapils/dextrin and small amounts of wheat. both will help with head retention and mouthfeel without adding much to any flavor.

if i had magnum i would use it, but the bittering hop shouldnt actually add any citrus flavor.

i have willamette and loral for "nobleish" hops. I could easily sub in willamette for the man bav i just thought that it would enhance the fruity yeast esters from the kolsch yeast? for that matter i could just up the loral at 15min and let that ride.

recipe formulation wise i generally scour the interwebs and look for tends in ingredeints between a bunch of recipes and then shoot for bjcp targets for color and ibus. but yes that recipe is fairly similar to my standard golden lager, which tastes like a german pilsner and is my favorite beer that i make.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1427656

 

[J A]

i use 2r. IMO its a better malt for general brewing. I have compared 2 of the exact same recipes side by side, one with pils and one with 2r and not been able to tell a difference. generally 2r is a little cheaper and has a higher DP. I also buy 2r by the pallet so it is what i have, no reason to buy separate ingredients for single batches.

I compared a bunch of different recipes on the interwebs and they all has base malt and a touch of vienna. many of them had added carapils/dextrin and small amounts of wheat. both will help with head retention and mouthfeel without adding much to any flavor.

if i had magnum i would use it, but the bittering hop shouldnt actually add any citrus flavor.

i have willamette and loral for "nobleish" hops. I could easily sub in willamette for the man bav i just thought that it would enhance the fruity yeast esters from the kolsch yeast? for that matter i could just up the loral at 15min and let that ride.

recipe formulation wise i generally scour the interwebs and look for tends in ingredeints between a bunch of recipes and then shoot for bjcp targets for color and ibus. but yes that recipe is fairly similar to my standard golden lager, which tastes like a german pilsner and is my favorite beer that i make.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1427656

Yeah, it's typical to use the "house malt" as a base for pretty much every recipe. And, most basic 2rows do have a better efficiency than Pilsner. Given that you're following a production schedule, enhancing a single-infusion with a little something for body isn't unusual. I've used CaraVienne in some recipes and it's a great way to kill 2 birds with one stone. Regarding the hops, since this style isn't highly bittered, you can keep the 60 minute addition low and so should avoid some of the CTZ danky-catty flavor. Willamette is a favorite...such a great all-around hop. Any combination of that and the Loral and/or Mandarina should serve well.
You've got this worked out with ingredients you're used to so it'll be good, I'm sure. I do like the idea of the simplest version you can come up with, though.

 

[Bigbre04]

Yeah, it's typical to use the "house malt" as a base for pretty much every recipe. And, most basic 2rows do have a better efficiency than Pilsner. Given that you're following a production schedule, enhancing a single-infusion with a little something for body isn't unusual. I've used CaraVienne in some recipes and it's a great way to kill 2 birds with one stone. Regarding the hops, since this style isn't highly bittered, you can keep the 60 minute addition low and so should avoid some of the CTZ danky-catty flavor. Willamette is a favorite...such a great all-around hop. Any combination of that and the Loral and/or Mandarina should serve well.
You've got this worked out with ingredients you're used to so it'll be good, I'm sure. I do like the idea of the simplest version you can come up with, though.

totally. the second recipe was not going to be what i wanted for a "kolsch" but this one should be pretty close and nice and clean. I have not used this yeast before so letting that shine is the best answer imo. I can use the second half of the brick for something different in the future!

if you saw my old recipes you would think this was the most bare bones i have ever made lol.

 

[dmtaylor]

When I think Kolsch, I think simple. Pilsner malt. Noble hops. The right yeast. That is all.

Otherwise you're still making good beer, of course. But it's not Kolsch. Kolsch is a beer made in Koln. Anything else that doesn't even try to be anything very close to something brewed in Koln is not Kolsch. So my preference would be to just call it something else.

 

[J A]

totally. the second recipe was not going to be what i wanted for a "kolsch" but this one should be pretty close and nice and clean. I have not used this yeast before so letting that shine is the best answer imo. I can use the second half of the brick for something different in the future!

if you saw my old recipes you would think this was the most bare bones i have ever made lol.

It'll be interesting to see what that yeast does. Very tough to get a good Kolsch-style dry yeast. Some of the Lallemand stuff is ferocious.
The White Labs stuff can be tricky. I think it was the 029 that I used once for an Altbier and it was so fruity it tasted like a chocolate covered banana.
I keep the Fermentis K-97 around it always seems to do a nice job.

 

[Minbari]

When I think Kolsch, I think simple. Pilsner malt. Noble hops. The right yeast. That is all.

Otherwise you're still making good beer, of course. But it's not Kolsch. Kolsch is a beer made in Koln. Anything else that doesn't even try to be anything very close to something brewed in Koln is not Kolsch. So my preference would be to just call it something else.

Second this. Willamette is genetically the same as fuggles. Not a noble hop.

 

[Bigbre04]

It'll be interesting to see what that yeast does. Very tough to get a good Kolsch-style dry yeast. Some of the Lallemand stuff is ferocious.
The White Labs stuff can be tricky. I think it was the 029 that I used once for an Altbier and it was so fruity it tasted like a chocolate covered banana.
I keep the Fermentis K-97 around it always seems to do a nice job.

So far, i have been very impressed with all of the Apex yeasts that i have used. i love their chico, voss, and munich lager yeasts. Their belgian abbey strain has been pretty good as well. Going to shoot for the middle of the temp range. Also trying their Servo pro yeast nutrient for the first time.

At the end of the day this beer is pretty cheap so not a big loss and im not in urgent need of the beer at the moment.

Second this. Willamette is genetically the same as fuggles. Not a noble hop.

technically no, but it is generally an accepted substitute for nobles. I also have it on hand so that is a big plus in its use.

I shifted the hops a touch. added an oz of loral cryo and dropped the Man Bav down to 2 ozs at 5 mins. kept the ibus basically the same, but shouldnt have as much hop forward character.

 

[Bigbre04]

When I think Kolsch, I think simple. Pilsner malt. Noble hops. The right yeast. That is all.

Otherwise you're still making good beer, of course. But it's not Kolsch. Kolsch is a beer made in Koln. Anything else that doesn't even try to be anything very close to something brewed in Koln is not Kolsch. So my preference would be to just call it something else.

same argument i have made before on here. if i call something one thing and it tastes accurate to what is expected, it doesnt matter how i get there right?

 

[dmtaylor]

I do love Willamette. Might even consider it "noble". That and EKG.

 

[J A]

When I think Kolsch, I think simple. Pilsner malt. Noble hops. The right yeast. That is all.

Otherwise you're still making good beer, of course. But it's not Kolsch. Kolsch is a beer made in Koln. Anything else that doesn't even try to be anything very close to something brewed in Koln is not Kolsch. So my preference would be to just call it something else.

I think anyone who's remotely familiar with the style fully understands that it wasn't brewed in Koln and so it's a facsimile. Most patrons have no idea whatsoever. They'll remember the catchy beer name - we have Love Street, Cruzer, Fancy Lawnmower - and forget about the style.
We do have a pretty authentic German Brewery in the area and when they say Kolsch, they mean it. Not brewed in Koln but would be very much at home there - very, very true to style.

 

[J A]

So far, i have been very impressed with all of the Apex yeasts that i have used. i love their chico, voss, and munich lager yeasts. Their belgian abbey strain has been pretty good as well. Going to shoot for the middle of the temp range. Also trying their Servo pro yeast nutrient for the first time.

Hey...what's your pitch rate on the Apex Munich? I need to get a lager going and since I have most of a brick of that, I might as well just pitch once. I usually build up by a decent pitch in a 5-gallon batch and use the slurry for a 15-gallon batch. I don't need that much beer on tap but I could stand a couple of kegs of my rice lager or a good basic Pils. I'll just do a one-and-done 10-gallon batch.
Last time (only time?) I pitched that yeast I used 72 grams dry in a 20 gallon batch. Looks like that went to FG in about 7 days with 81% attenuation. The brick has been sitting in the fridge for several years but it's been sealed and cold. I'll proof it a little before I pitch but seems like it ought to work.

 

[Bigbre04]

Hey...what's your pitch rate on the Apex Munich? I need to get a lager going and since I have most of a brick of that, I might as well just pitch once. I usually build up by a decent pitch in a 5-gallon batch and use the slurry for a 15-gallon batch. I don't need that much beer on tap but I could stand a couple of kegs of my rice lager or a good basic Pils. I'll just do a one-and-done 10-gallon batch.
Last time (only time?) I pitched that yeast I used 72 grams dry in a 20 gallon batch. Looks like that went to FG in about 7 days with 81% attenuation. The brick has been sitting in the fridge for several years but it's been sealed and cold. I'll proof it a little before I pitch but seems like it ought to work.

So I pitch 250g In about 76 gal of beer. It is a significant overpitch but at my scale it's worth it for the time savings and consistency.

Also I'm lazy and just split the bricks between batches.

I also pitch 20g of yeast x 82. 20g of whirlfloc bws. And push o2 at 1lpm during the whole knockout.

 

[J A]

So I pitch 250g In about 76 gal of beer. It is a significant overpitch but at my scale it's worth it for the time savings and consistency.

Also I'm lazy and just split the bricks between batches.

I also pitch 20g of yeast x 82. 20g of whirlfloc bws. And push o2 at 1lpm during the whole knockout.

Works out to be pretty much identical to the pitch rate I used. My notes say I pitched at 58F and held that until day 4 and then raised to 67. I guess that's a good rate to stick with.

I also used that same pitch rate for Mauribrew 497 and fermented a little warmer in a Pale Ale. That one was at gravity on day 4. That's another beer I need to get going. I know there have been a few discussions about 497 yeast. It's a pretty versatile one and it occurs to me that it might actually be a good Kolsch yeast if held down between 55 and 60 degrees.

 

[Bigbre04]

Works out to be pretty much identical to the pitch rate I used. My notes say I pitched at 58F and held that until day 4 and then raised to 67. I guess that's a good rate to stick with.

I also used that same pitch rate for Mauribrew 497 and fermented a little warmer in a Pale Ale. That one was at gravity on day 4. That's another beer I need to get going. I know there have been a few discussions about 497 yeast. It's a pretty versatile one and it occurs to me that it might actually be a good Kolsch yeast if held down between 55 and 60 degrees.

I actually run the Munich lager yeast at 64-66 thr whole time and it creates a very nice pilsner style lager with the recipe I posted up higher

No rest needed. That one is 8-10 days grain to glass which is nice.

I think I'm gonna brew a second batch of my juicy ipa that I have on now. It's getting really positive feedback and it was an easy brew

 

[J A]

I actually run the Munich lager yeast at 64-66 thr whole time and it creates a very nice pilsner style lager with the recipe I posted up higher

No rest needed. That one is 8-10 days grain to glass which is nice.

I think I'm gonna brew a second batch of my juicy ipa that I have on now. It's getting really positive feedback and it was an easy brew

Yeah, most of those yeasts don't mind temps in the lower-mid 60s. I usually run 5-gallon incubator batches like that. The time difference in holding high 50s for the first few days isn't much and the beer is a little cleaner and lets the malt come through a little better. It's nice to have that when using a good pilsner malt with subtle flavor or when there's a fair percentage of Munich in an amber lager which can get a little sweet/almost fruity on it's own.

A good juicy is sort of like printing money in a taproom - fast, simple brew, quick turnaround, always popular with a broad cross section of customers.