Cooling Again!

[Steve SPF]

I have another batch that may be a dumper and can't see why.

The brewday went really well I felt. I followed the recipe properly, timings were all good and I hit my numbers pre and post boil.

I'm wondering if the way I'm getting down to pitching temp could be an issue? I know we've had this a lot lately! I blamed 'no chill' for my last dumper so this time I did an immersion chill down to 50c which took 20-30 minutes and then went into the fermenter. I use an immersion chiller/heat pad setup on the fermenter to maintain temps and it's pretty effective but might take 6 hours to get down to 18c pitching temp.

I'm wondering if it's this that's causing my problem? I'm brewing English pales with pretty delicate flavours and low ABV, this one's 3.9%. I'm getting really quite sour fruity and bitter flavours at the moment, not nice at all. It went into the keg on Friday.

Any thoughts?

 

[Blackmuse]

Did you use the same fermenter as last time? What type of fermenter is it?

Your fermentation temperatures stay pretty consistant I take it once it is down to the 18c?

 

[Steve SPF]

It is the same fermenter yes, and it's full of stout now.

I use flat bottomed stainless vessels. They're not a great seal but I've always thought that if they're clean and have decent fermentation going, so decent amounts of CO2 in the headspace, it would all work out fine and it always has so far. Not had this trouble before.

 

[Nosybear]

I have another batch that may be a dumper and can't see why.

The brewday went really well I felt. I followed the recipe properly, timings were all good and I hit my numbers pre and post boil.

I'm wondering if the way I'm getting down to pitching temp could be an issue? I know we've had this a lot lately! I blamed 'no chill' for my last dumper so this time I did an immersion chill down to 50c which took 20-30 minutes and then went into the fermenter. I use an immersion chiller/heat pad setup on the fermenter to maintain temps and it's pretty effective but might take 6 hours to get down to 18c pitching temp.

I'm wondering if it's this that's causing my problem? I'm brewing English pales with pretty delicate flavours and low ABV, this one's 3.9%. I'm getting really quite sour fruity and bitter flavours at the moment, not nice at all. It went into the keg on Friday.

Any thoughts?

Describe why the batch is a dumper. There are several possible reasons. What does it taste like? How does it smell? Is there too much of something? Is it flat? Acrid?

 

[Blackmuse]

I was thinking that maybe whatever got into your last batch may have effected this batch but if you are using stainless and solid cleaning/sanatization then it is probably not that... If your ferm temps have been good then it probably isn't that either... What is the yeast and did you repitch from one batch to another or were they separate yeasts?

I have heard of plenty of people cooling overnight and pitching the next day - heck some books even recommend it... I can never wait that long and am lucky to have 50-60 degree well water year around... I can cool to below 70 in under an hour.

You could do what I sometimes do and use two immersion chillers - one in a bucket of ice that feeds the one in your beer. It works wicked fast you could get down to 18c in probably an hour depending.

 

[Steve SPF]

Describe why the batch is a dumper. There are several possible reasons. What does it taste like? How does it smell? Is there too much of something? Is it flat? Acrid?

It's hazy and shouldn't be, this was fined in the kettle and with isinglass so should be crystal clear. It isn't flat, it's carbed up well. Acrid would be a good word, sour is another. The malt and hop flavours are overwhelmed by a fruity/sour flavour.

I didn't like this one when it came out of the fermenter. There's usually a really nice 'fresh beer' smell at packaging time, this was a bit like food that had been hanging around a bit too long. A bit kind of musty and old already.

Yeast was S04. This was the batch that I had to re-pitch because it didn't start. I don't re-use yeast, it's always new.

 

[Group W]

Are you able to control fermentation temperature, like fermenting inside a chest freezer or fridge? High ferm temps give off esters.

What is your water source? I had those flavors using my slightly alkaline well water (Ph 7.6) and treating it with lactic acid. Now I use RO water with very little lactic acid in my mash water only.

 

[Steve SPF]

@Group W

Fermentation temps were very good, very stable. I ferment at 18 and then go to 20 and 22 for 24 hours. Water comes out of the tap, I use sodium metabisulphate and leave it overnight to deal with chlorine. Mash PH is 5.3 or thereabouts every time.

 

[Steve SPF]

You could do what I sometimes do and use two immersion chillers - one in a bucket of ice that feeds the one in your beer. It works wicked fast you could get down to 18c in probably an hour depending.

I like that idea, could probably set that up.

 

[BrewPatgonia]

Hi Steve, How is your transfer process, from BK to fermenter? any possibility of something wild getting in, through the air or through the transfer tube?

 

[Steve SPF]

Hi Steve, How is your transfer process, from BK to fermenter? any possibility of something wild getting in, through the air or through the transfer tube?

Always a possibility I guess. I pump from kettle to fermenter and like to think that the pump is cleaned and sanatised properly but no doubt it's a possibility.

 

[Blackmuse]

Always a possibility I guess. I pump from kettle to fermenter and like to think that the pump is cleaned and sanatised properly but no doubt it's a possibility.

I'd start with the pump! Or - negate it next batch and see how things come out...

 

[BrewPatgonia]

I bring it up because:
I also pump from BK to Ferm., I cover the small entrance to the fermenter with a sanitized towel lightly sprayed with an iodine solution to help avoid contaminants in the air from getting in. (remember, I have a little of OCD)
I also soak my hoses and also pump some solution prior to using the equipment; with solution of 12.5 ppm iodine..I do not have access to the normal sanitizers of the first world countries .

I had a 2.5 ltr container of boiled wort open to the air for < 3 minutes, while I was making a starter... after resealing the container and thinking all was good; I noticed 3 days later my container having a lot of pressure which I vented off.. and then after 3 more days of bleeding pressure off, I understood that the wort is fermenting... obviously due to being open to the air for a short duration.. I dumped my wort which was prepared for making yeast starters.
this opened my eyes a little to the real threat of aireborne activity.

 

[Blackmuse]

I bring it up because:
I also pump from BK to Ferm., I cover the small entrance to the fermenter with a sanitized towel lightly sprayed with an iodine solution to help avoid contaminants in the air from getting in. (remember, I have a little of OCD)
I also soak my hoses and also pump some solution prior to using the equipment; with solution of 12.5 ppm iodine..I do not have access to the normal sanitizers of the first world countries .

I had a 2.5 ltr container of boiled wort open to the air for < 3 minutes, while I was making a starter... after resealing the container and thinking all was good; I noticed 3 days later my container having a lot of pressure which I vented off.. and then after 3 more days of bleeding pressure off, I understood that the wort is fermenting... obviously due to being open to the air for a short duration.. I dumped my wort which was prepared for making yeast starters.
this opened my eyes a little to the real threat of aireborne activity.

OH! You should have let it finish and tried the results! I captured a wild yeast that way last year and it ended up being great! - I realize though that I was lucky!

 

[Nosybear]

It's hazy and shouldn't be, this was fined in the kettle and with isinglass so should be crystal clear. It isn't flat, it's carbed up well. Acrid would be a good word, sour is another. The malt and hop flavours are overwhelmed by a fruity/sour flavour.

I didn't like this one when it came out of the fermenter. There's usually a really nice 'fresh beer' smell at packaging time, this was a bit like food that had been hanging around a bit too long. A bit kind of musty and old already.

Yeast was S04. This was the batch that I had to re-pitch because it didn't start. I don't re-use yeast, it's always new.

Sounds like infection to me. "Musty and old" could be infection or oxidation, as could be the lack of "fresh beer smell." Acrid and sour are consistent with infection. I'd recommend two things: Clean and disinfect everything. If you can take it apart, take it apart and disinfect it. There's a simple test you can do to test for infected wort if you can get your hands on a sterile centrifuge tube or similar container: Run some of your wort before aerating and pitching into it and seal it, being careful not to introduce microbes. Store it in a dark, warm place and check it about every 12 hours. If it shows no signs of spoiling after two days your sanitation is good enough. Then look everywhere in your process for opportunities to introduce air. If it were a problem with no-chill i'd be looking for excessive bitterness, although if the wort weren't hot enough or if the demi-john leaked air, that could be a source of infection.

 

[Hawkbox]

Sour is usually related to infected.

 

[Craigerrr]

Do you recirculate through the pump during the last part of the boil?

 

[Blackmuse]

Do you recirculate through the pump during the last part of the boil?

Right! That should help disinfect it.

 

[Craigerrr]

Right! That should help disinfect it.

Yes, sanitize actually. But truly if there is something in the pump and or hoses, it would point to them not being cleaned properly in the first place.

 

[BOB357]

This time of year can be especially bad for airborne wild yeasts and other critters riding on pollens. Don't know about where you are Steve, but we've had a very mild Winter and early onset of Spring, which makes it even a bigger problem.