Vorlauf and dark malt

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I use an Anvil Foundry with recirculation. For my dark beers I mash all the malt at the same time. In reading up on the vorlauf process it states the benefit of adding dark malts during vorlauf is reduced astringency. Are there any other benefits I’m missing? Since I’m recirculating through the entire duration of the mash, am I not vorlaufing? If that’s the case, and I wanted to add the dark malts later in a 60 minute mash, when would I add them?
 
This isn't something that I am familiar with, but I have made a few dark beers with my BIAB, and they are usually pretty good. My grains are milled at the brew store, and they are all packaged together per my request. They all get mashed in the same bag for the same amount of time.
I'll listen to learn, but is this necessary?
 
so technically you are doing a saccrifcation rest that happens to be pumped. The vorlauf starts after the grain has hit 170f(mash out).

So essentially you would be adding the dark grains after the mash out.

I have never tried adding dark malts other then for the whole mash, but I have heard of this before. never done it myself.
 
Solid question.

Not specifically speaking.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/zWFF6aqpxT/#:~:text=Vorlauf is German for “recirculation,under the vessel's false bottom.

Whether you’re doing a single infusion, decoction or step mash, these steps with recirculation are mostly to keep the grain bed a more consistent temperature as well as increase the efficiency/extraction during the mash. When you’re no longer extracting sugars - I “confirm” this with 2 consecutive same readings on the refractometer, you move on to the mash out at a higher temp - generally 168-170 and vourlauf. This may be a slightly different “home brewer’s” understanding but like government work; it’s not just good, it’s good enough.

Were you to mash say, black patent malt for the 75-90 minutes, mash out and vourlauf along with the other grains, it’s definitely going to contribute a bitter astringent quality to the beer. That will definitely detract from drinkability.

So, Brewer’s Friend recipe calculator allows you to specify a late addition on your malts, which will help keep you “in the green” numbers wise.

There are a couple ways I know of to reduce / avoid astringency from very dark malts.
Late addition like you’re discussing. I usually go late in the mash though (because)
Use special dark malts - Blackprinz for example instead of black patent. Carafa specials (2 & 3 I think) and so on.

If all I had were Black / black patent malt, I’d add as late as I could and recirculate only for color and go!

Although not specifically to style, I like my Porters BLACK, like my soul... So I keep a handy supply of blackprinz.

There is a recent all in one help thread < cannot search for it using “all in one” it gets rejected for too few search arguments >
It has a lot of good info on process and procedures for the various all in one systems. I bring this up because you mention the 60 minute mash. I’ve got both an anvil 10 and 18 and I’ve never finished a mash in 60 minutes ;-) Check that thread out as time permits.

Edit to add: Found the all in one help thread in my history:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/threads/all-in-one-brewhouse-help-thread.17832/#post-211700
Forum guys/gals:
One would think one could find this thread with the keywords “all-in-one-brewhouse-help-thread” or a variation of that search but one would be wrong. Even advanced search, removing the right most arguments one by one until you get too few arguments fails. That don’t look right.


As for when specifically to add darker malts to avoid astringency I’d say the last 10-15 minutes-ish of your entire mash/mash out/vourlauf process.
 
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Solid question.

Not specifically speaking.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/zWFF6aqpxT/#:~:text=Vorlauf is German for “recirculation,under the vessel's false bottom.

Whether you’re doing a single infusion, decoction or step mash, these steps with recirculation are mostly to keep the grain bed a more consistent temperature as well as increase the efficiency/extraction during the mash. When you’re no longer extracting sugars - I “confirm” this with 2 consecutive same readings on the refractometer, you move on to the mash out at a higher temp - generally 168-170 and vourlauf. This may be a slightly different “home brewer’s” understanding but like government work; it’s not just good, it’s good enough.

Were you to mash say, black patent malt for the 75-90 minutes, mash out and vourlauf along with the other grains, it’s definitely going to contribute a bitter astringent quality to the beer. That will definitely detract from drinkability.

So, Brewer’s Friend recipe calculator allows you to specify a late addition on your malts, which will help keep you “in the green” numbers wise.

There are a couple ways I know of to reduce / avoid astringency from very dark malts.
Late addition like you’re discussing. I usually go late in the mash though (because)
Use special dark malts - Blackprinz for example instead of black patent. Carafa specials (2 & 3 I think) and so on.

If all I had were Black / black patent malt, I’d add as late as I could and recirculate only for color and go!

Although not specifically to style, I like my Porters BLACK, like my soul... So I keep a handy supply of blackprinz.

There is a recent all in one help thread < cannot search for it using “all in one” it gets rejected for too few search arguments >
It has a lot of good info on process and procedures for the various all in one systems. I bring this up because you mention the 60 minute mash. I’ve got both an anvil 10 and 18 and I’ve never finished a mash in 60 minutes ;-) Check that thread out as time permits.

As for when specifically to add darker malts to avoid astringency I’d say the last 10-15 minutes-ish of your entire mash/mash out/vourlauf process.
I really like midnight wheat over black prinz! I have both on hand right now, but i wont be buying more prinz!

I avoid astringency by avoiding black malt and using smaller amounts of Roasted when compared to black or chocolate. I also like to layer on the colored malt(depending on style obviously). I really like the Spec X/midnight wheat combo.
 
I use Chocolate 350 in my Porters, and I use Munich in the grain bill to offset the bitterness. I guess more than one way to skin a Cat:)
 
I really like midnight wheat over black prinz! I have both on hand right now, but i wont be buying more prinz!

I avoid astringency by avoiding black malt and using smaller amounts of Roasted when compared to black or chocolate. I also like to layer on the colored malt(depending on style obviously). I really like the Spec X/midnight wheat combo.
I forgot all about midnight wheat ! Solid choice.
I use Chocolate 350 in my Porters, and I use Munich in the grain bill to offset the bitterness. I guess more than one way to skin a Cat:)
indeed there is.
 
All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.
 
All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.
this is my black lager(technically a schwartzbier) that i have brewed several times. Patrons have been requesting it lately which is pretty cool. it is non standard, but very good!

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1459018
 
Forum guys/gals:
One would think one could find this thread with the keywords “all-in-one-brewhouse-help-thread” or a variation of that search but one would be wrong. Even advanced search, removing the right most arguments one by one until you get too few arguments fails.
A bit off-topic, but text search never has worked for me here. I stopped trying long ago.
 
this is my black lager(technically a schwartzbier) that i have brewed several times. Patrons have been requesting it lately which is pretty cool. it is non standard, but very good!

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1459018
that looks more like east coast (pre prohibition) porter to me than schwarzbier, but TBF there’s quite a bit of overlap. I have both available now and there’s some commonality, but brown malt is typically the realm of porter. Nothing wrong with it in schwarzbier though.

All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.

While I understand and appreciate what beer judges do, I am not a big fan of subjective judging as it is almost always skewed by personal bias. In my local brew club, we have a few BJCP and former judges and my personal favorites are 1) “I get astringency” and 2) I get diacetyl.

There was a really objective guy there once who made some very astute observations about judging, correcting them with something like ‘you may perceive astringency, but you also may have a contaminate palette and you may sense diacetyl, but that’s a subjective observation, to be sure you’d need a chemical analysis’. I get your point though; I got beer of the month locally for a Märzen and I passed it by the closest BJCP judge I could find. He found it too sweet, not enough ‘bready’ character, gave me some feed back and famously told me ‘it’s a good beer and easy to drink, but I wouldn’t score it well to style’

BJCP rules are like the Pirate Code; they be more like guidelines than actual rules. ;-)

It’s like the judging of bronco riding, or bull riding as opposed to say barrel racing where there’s an objective time. The objectivity in beer judging is low, the subjective judging is high. That said, if you mashed in with Carafa and mashed an hour + and didn’t have something like corn to offset it ( well.. kind of ) then yeah you could get some bitter, astringent notes in the beer. So don’t get wrapped up about a poor score, but do consider the feedback you get.
 
that looks more like east coast (pre prohibition) porter to me than schwarzbier, but TBF there’s quite a bit of overlap. I have both available now and there’s some commonality, but brown malt is typically the realm of porter. Nothing wrong with it in schwarzbier though.



While I understand and appreciate what beer judges do, I am not a big fan of subjective judging as it is almost always skewed by personal bias. In my local brew club, we have a few BJCP and former judges and my personal favorites are 1) “I get astringency” and 2) I get diacetyl.

There was a really objective guy there once who made some very astute observations about judging, correcting them with something like ‘you may perceive astringency, but you also may have a contaminate palette and you may sense diacetyl, but that’s a subjective observation, to be sure you’d need a chemical analysis’. I get your point though; I got beer of the month locally for a Märzen and I passed it by the closest BJCP judge I could find. He found it too sweet, not enough ‘bready’ character, gave me some feed back and famously told me ‘it’s a good beer and easy to drink, but I wouldn’t score it well to style’

BJCP rules are like the Pirate Code; they be more like guidelines than actual rules. ;-)

It’s like the judging of bronco riding, or bull riding as opposed to say barrel racing where there’s an objective time. The objectivity in beer judging is low, the subjective judging is high. That said, if you mashed in with Carafa and mashed an hour + and didn’t have something like corn to offset it ( well.. kind of ) then yeah you could get some bitter, astringent notes in the beer. So don’t get wrapped up about a poor score, but do consider the feedback you get.
cant argue that i is non standard and could probably be simplified, but it is a damn good black lager lol.

Dont get me started on Beer Judges or even worse Untappd...loathing is too light of a word.
 
cant argue that i is non standard and could probably be simplified, but it is a damn good black lager lol.

Dont get me started on Beer Judges or even worse Untappd...loathing is too light of a word.

Ouch. I'm a pretty good judge, and will judge according to style. I work with a grand master X or something like that once in a while, and she's awesome. Great palate, kind words, and helpful. Maybe you've just had some really bad luck with some competitions.
 
I use an Anvil Foundry with recirculation. For my dark beers I mash all the malt at the same time. In reading up on the vorlauf process it states the benefit of adding dark malts during vorlauf is reduced astringency. Are there any other benefits I’m missing? Since I’m recirculating through the entire duration of the mash, am I not vorlaufing? If that’s the case, and I wanted to add the dark malts later in a 60 minute mash, when would I add them?

I know you've had LOTS of replies, but in my case I generally mash all my malts together too. But I do pay attention to mash pH, and make sure the amounts of black/roasted malts are appropriate.
If you want to add the dark malts later to have less flavor and astringency (particularly if your mash pH can't handle them), you can add them in the last 15 minutes of the mash and continue recirculation.
 
Ouch. I'm a pretty good judge, and will judge according to style. I work with a grand master X or something like that once in a while, and she's awesome. Great palate, kind words, and helpful. Maybe you've just had some really bad luck with some competitions.
Nothing personal against judges themselves. I appreciate someone with a trained palate. But palate fatigue and personal opinions are real.

My frustration comes from years past. There is alot of luck in getting metals imo.

Untappd allows people who shouldn't review a beer to review it. Most commercial brewers dislike it alot.
 
All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.
If you agree that you beer has some astringency, you could try "capping the mash" with your dark malts in the last 15 minutes of the mash. You could also try using a dehusked version of the carafe malt. This has the outer husk essentially partially removed which will reduce excessive bitterness, or astringency imparted.
Unless of course you disagree with the "judgement", and like your beer just the way it is. Style, shmyle perhaps...
 
To start, an excellent resource about mashing and brewing in general is https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com. There's lots of detail and home-grown science there which can be overwhelming to the newbie, but if you like deep-dives and really want to up your game, I highly recommend spending some time with his wiki. The topics don't just apply to German styles either, but really any brew. You can skim it to start at first, and then revisit as you advance for better understanding.

It was there I learned to 'mash to full conversion' rather than by time. And while stable readings are one indicator, especially if they are your target pre-boil, a better method is to use an Iodine test as confirmation conversion is complete. (Recipe builders are estimators. Since malt is a crop, each batch will vary, so your pre-boil will as well.)

I and my brewing buddies pretty much always add dark malts (over 200°L) at Vorlauf. We've also tried doing an overnight cold-steep of dark grains, (suggested by Palmer in "How to Brew") but that doesn't seem to make a difference compared to 'capping' as it is called, and is just extra work and something else you have to think about and do in advance.

Astringency can come from *any* color barley, though dark malts are more susceptible to it. (or at least are more likely to be noticeable) Huskless malts (Wheat, Rye, Oats, Rice, Corn, etc.) either don't have the tannins to produce astringency at all, or else they are so low as to not be an issue. As for palates and judges, I think some people are simply better trained to detect it. Once you experience and know what it is, you start to notice it more and more. The way I learned is if you get a dry-cheek sensation like you just sucked on a piece of wood in the aftertaste of the beer, or even a mild 'cotton mouth' sensation—it is astringent. That is more common than you might suspect.

Astringency is caused by two factors: 1) High mash temps (above 168℉) and 2) High pH. (above 5.7 or so) This is more common with sparging processes because some folks aren't careful or don't have good means or meters to make sure their sparge water has a low enough pH. BIAB type systems avoid this problem as long as your main mash pH is in the proper range. That just leaves temp as a danger zone, so be mindful to keep your Vorlauf as close to 168℉ as possible until you pull the grains.

Vorlauf significantly decreases the viscosity of the mash, helps to properly set the grain bed by creating a layer of fine particulate over the grains, (there's a German name for this stuff, but I can't recall it off-hand) and rinses more sugars out of the grain bed rather than leaving them behind. I started raising my bag just prior to the mash-out temp ramp and then rinse the grains with my pump for 10 minutes as a Vorlauf step. This consistently buys me 3–5 gravity points versus pulling the bag and not rinsing through. (even with recirculation in that step) It's like a continuous sparge, but using the wort, not additional water where pH can be an issue. My process is to mash to full conversion confirmed by an Iodine test, *then* raise the bag and Vorlauf. Then I check gravity for 'pre-boil' and I'm usually within a point or two of target. (see above about estimation) UPDATE: from braukaiser.com, I forgot that Vorlauf also can contribute to full gelatinization of some starches that may not occur in the Saccharification ranges. This aids efficiency. (conversion) Which is why you'll see a mash stall out in gravity rise below 160°F, and then pick up more points as you proceed to mash-out temps.

No matter how you logistically handle the step, try to keep about an inch of wort on top of the bed by adjusting your pump flow to prevent channeling or cracking of the grain bed. After 10 minutes, stop the recirculation and let the bag fully drain, then SQUEEZE!—no tannins are created from squeezing, that is a myth. No need to leave wort behind in the grain if you can get it out. I've found the best squeezing method is to use an A-frame ladder to suspend my bag pulley with a large carabiner, and then slide my mash paddle or a pipe through the carabiner so it gets caught on both sides of the ladder, and then twist the bag until I can't any more. I can easily recover ½ gallon of wort that would otherwise be lost that way.

A special note for capped mashes: holding back dark grains will affect the pH of the mash, that is, it will be higher than if they were included from the start. Thus, be sure to set them as 'late additions' so the BF Water Calc doesn't factor in their pH contribution. This will mean you might need to make pH adjustments with acid to hit the right mash pH. (I use 85% Phosphoric to avoid lactic flavors) Yes, it will drop more when those dark grains are finally added, but I've yet to see that get too low, and I've brewed lots of dark styles. Even the blackest of Stouts and IPAs are fine. (+1 for Midnight Wheat too!)

Finally, about judges, ours here are notorious for wanting more hops, both flavor and aroma. Personally, I find low carbonation to be the biggest issue for bottled homebrew. (which of course, affects hop perceptions) I also find some of them need to re-read the beginning of the guidelines where it stresses that they aren't supposed to be hard-nosed bright-lines, but *literally* guidelines for how a style should look, smell, and taste. Entirely too many BJCP judges are extremely nit-picky and harsh. That makes entering contests quite frustrating. Their 'advice' of simply 'more' and other unquantified generic terms for anything I find to be non-helpful. Maybe the BJCP could send out friendly refresher notes to judges on some of these points.
 
Last edited:
To start, an excellent resource about mashing and brewing in general is https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com. There's lots of detail and home-grown science there which can be overwhelming to the newbie, but if you like deep-dives and really want to up your game, I highly recommend spending some time with his wiki. The topics don't just apply to German styles either, but really any brew. You can skim it to start at first, and then revisit as you advance for better understanding.

It was there I learned to 'mash to full conversion' rather than by time. And while stable readings are one indicator, especially if they are your target pre-boil, a better method is to use an Iodine test as confirmation conversion is complete. (Recipe builders are estimators. Since malt is a crop, each batch will vary, so your pre-boil will as well.)

I and my brewing buddies pretty much always add dark malts (over 200°L) at Vorlauf. We've also tried doing an overnight cold-steep of dark grains, (suggested by Palmer in "How to Brew") but that doesn't seem to make a difference compared to 'capping' as it is called, and is just extra work and something else you have to think about and do in advance.

Astringency can come from *any* color barley, though dark malts are more susceptible to it. (or at least are more likely to be noticeable) Huskless malts (Wheat, Rye, Oats, Rice, Corn, etc.) either don't have the tannins to produce astringency at all, or else they are so low as to not be an issue. As for palates and judges, I think some people are simply better trained to detect it. Once you experience and know what it is, you start to notice it more and more. The way I learned is if you get a dry-cheek sensation like you just sucked on a piece of wood in the aftertaste of the beer, or even a mild 'cotton mouth' sensation—it is astringent. That is more common than you might suspect.

Astringency is caused by two factors: 1) High mash temps (above 168℉) and 2) High pH. (above 5.7 or so) This is more common with sparging processes because some folks aren't careful or don't have good means or meters to make sure their sparge water has a low enough pH. BIAB type systems avoid this problem as long as your main mash pH is in the proper range. That just leaves temp as a danger zone, so be mindful to keep your Vorlauf as close to 168℉ as possible until you pull the grains.

Vorlauf significantly decreases the viscosity of the mash, helps to properly set the grain bed by creating a layer of fine particulate over the grains, (there's a German name for this stuff, but I can't recall it off-hand) and rinses more sugars out of the grain bed rather than leaving them behind. I started raising my bag just prior to the mash-out temp ramp and then rinse the grains with my pump for 10 minutes as a Vorlauf step. This consistently buys me 3–5 gravity points versus pulling the bag and not rinsing through. (even with recirculation in that step) It's like a continuous sparge, but using the wort, not additional water where pH can be an issue. My process is to mash to full conversion confirmed by an Iodine test, *then* raise the bag and Vorlauf. Then I check gravity for 'pre-boil' and I'm usually within a point or two of target. (see above about estimation)

No matter how you logistically handle the step, try to keep about an inch of wort on top of the bed by adjusting your pump flow to prevent channeling or cracking of the grain bed. After 10 minutes, stop the recirculation and let the bag fully drain, then SQUEEZE!—no tannins are created from squeezing, that is a myth. No need to leave wort behind in the grain if you can get it out. I've found the best squeezing method is to use an A-frame ladder to suspend my bag pulley with a large carabiner, and then slide my mash paddle or a pipe through the carabiner so it gets caught on both sides of the ladder, and then twist the bag until I can't any more. I can easily recover ½ gallon of wort that would otherwise be lost that way.

A special note for capped mashes: holding back dark grains will affect the pH of the mash, that is, it will be higher than if they were included from the start. Thus, be sure to set them as 'late additions' so the BF Water Calc doesn't factor in their pH contribution. This will mean you might need to make pH adjustments with acid to hit the right mash pH. (I use 85% Phosphoric to avoid lactic flavors) Yes, it will drop more when those dark grains are finally added, but I've yet to see that get too low, and I've brewed lots of dark styles. Even the blackest of Stouts and IPAs are fine. (+1 for Midnight Wheat too!)

Finally, about judges, ours here are notorious for wanting more hops, both flavor and aroma. Personally, I find low carbonation to be the biggest issue for bottled homebrew. (which of course, affects hop perceptions) I also find some of them need to re-read the beginning of the guidelines where it stresses that they aren't supposed to be hard-nosed bright-lines, but *literally* guidelines for how a style should look, smell, and taste. Entirely too many BJCP judges are extremely nit-picky and harsh. That makes entering contests quite frustrating. Their 'advice' of simply 'more' and other unquantified generic terms for anything I find to be non-helpful. Maybe the BJCP could send out friendly refresher notes to judges on some of these points.
damn dude im impressed.

On the judges thing. It is a fact that some people can detect things at a super low concentration. I know a local brewer who was OBSESSED with DO and said he could taste it everywhere. I have done sensory training many times and never got it. Same goes for Diacetyl, I have a super high tolerance for it, where others cant handle even the smallest amount. But when I can taste it there, its really bad. I am very sensitive to some of the belgian esters and generally avoid them.

One of the best judges that i have ever had the pleasure of knowing was a full blown chain smoker who could have a cig in one hand a sample in another and NAIL every blind sensory test, even at very low %s

For competitions its really tough because they are generally run like an elimination bracket, so if your amazing beer gets a super picky or sensitive judge in the first round your done. Just annoys me, and when you scale up to GABF levels there are hundreds of beers in each category so its really really luck based.
 

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