Vorlauf and dark malt

[Semper Sitientum]

I use an Anvil Foundry with recirculation. For my dark beers I mash all the malt at the same time. In reading up on the vorlauf process it states the benefit of adding dark malts during vorlauf is reduced astringency. Are there any other benefits I’m missing? Since I’m recirculating through the entire duration of the mash, am I not vorlaufing? If that’s the case, and I wanted to add the dark malts later in a 60 minute mash, when would I add them?

 

[Sandy Feet]

This isn't something that I am familiar with, but I have made a few dark beers with my BIAB, and they are usually pretty good. My grains are milled at the brew store, and they are all packaged together per my request. They all get mashed in the same bag for the same amount of time.
I'll listen to learn, but is this necessary?

 

[Bigbre04]

so technically you are doing a saccrifcation rest that happens to be pumped. The vorlauf starts after the grain has hit 170f(mash out).

So essentially you would be adding the dark grains after the mash out.

I have never tried adding dark malts other then for the whole mash, but I have heard of this before. never done it myself.

 

[Dave Y]

Solid question.

Not specifically speaking.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/zWFF6aqpxT/#:~:text=Vorlauf is German for “recirculation,under the vessel's false bottom.

Whether you’re doing a single infusion, decoction or step mash, these steps with recirculation are mostly to keep the grain bed a more consistent temperature as well as increase the efficiency/extraction during the mash. When you’re no longer extracting sugars - I “confirm” this with 2 consecutive same readings on the refractometer, you move on to the mash out at a higher temp - generally 168-170 and vourlauf. This may be a slightly different “home brewer’s” understanding but like government work; it’s not just good, it’s good enough.

Were you to mash say, black patent malt for the 75-90 minutes, mash out and vourlauf along with the other grains, it’s definitely going to contribute a bitter astringent quality to the beer. That will definitely detract from drinkability.

So, Brewer’s Friend recipe calculator allows you to specify a late addition on your malts, which will help keep you “in the green” numbers wise.

There are a couple ways I know of to reduce / avoid astringency from very dark malts.
Late addition like you’re discussing. I usually go late in the mash though (because)
Use special dark malts - Blackprinz for example instead of black patent. Carafa specials (2 & 3 I think) and so on.

If all I had were Black / black patent malt, I’d add as late as I could and recirculate only for color and go!

Although not specifically to style, I like my Porters BLACK, like my soul... So I keep a handy supply of blackprinz.

There is a recent all in one help thread < cannot search for it using “all in one” it gets rejected for too few search arguments >
It has a lot of good info on process and procedures for the various all in one systems. I bring this up because you mention the 60 minute mash. I’ve got both an anvil 10 and 18 and I’ve never finished a mash in 60 minutes ;-) Check that thread out as time permits.

Edit to add: Found the all in one help thread in my history:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/threads/all-in-one-brewhouse-help-thread.17832/#post-211700
Forum guys/gals:
One would think one could find this thread with the keywords “all-in-one-brewhouse-help-thread” or a variation of that search but one would be wrong. Even advanced search, removing the right most arguments one by one until you get too few arguments fails. That don’t look right.


As for when specifically to add darker malts to avoid astringency I’d say the last 10-15 minutes-ish of your entire mash/mash out/vourlauf process.

 

[Bigbre04]

Solid question.

Not specifically speaking.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/zWFF6aqpxT/#:~:text=Vorlauf is German for “recirculation,under the vessel's false bottom.

Whether you’re doing a single infusion, decoction or step mash, these steps with recirculation are mostly to keep the grain bed a more consistent temperature as well as increase the efficiency/extraction during the mash. When you’re no longer extracting sugars - I “confirm” this with 2 consecutive same readings on the refractometer, you move on to the mash out at a higher temp - generally 168-170 and vourlauf. This may be a slightly different “home brewer’s” understanding but like government work; it’s not just good, it’s good enough.

Were you to mash say, black patent malt for the 75-90 minutes, mash out and vourlauf along with the other grains, it’s definitely going to contribute a bitter astringent quality to the beer. That will definitely detract from drinkability.

So, Brewer’s Friend recipe calculator allows you to specify a late addition on your malts, which will help keep you “in the green” numbers wise.

There are a couple ways I know of to reduce / avoid astringency from very dark malts.
Late addition like you’re discussing. I usually go late in the mash though (because)
Use special dark malts - Blackprinz for example instead of black patent. Carafa specials (2 & 3 I think) and so on.

If all I had were Black / black patent malt, I’d add as late as I could and recirculate only for color and go!

Although not specifically to style, I like my Porters BLACK, like my soul... So I keep a handy supply of blackprinz.

There is a recent all in one help thread < cannot search for it using “all in one” it gets rejected for too few search arguments >
It has a lot of good info on process and procedures for the various all in one systems. I bring this up because you mention the 60 minute mash. I’ve got both an anvil 10 and 18 and I’ve never finished a mash in 60 minutes ;-) Check that thread out as time permits.

As for when specifically to add darker malts to avoid astringency I’d say the last 10-15 minutes-ish of your entire mash/mash out/vourlauf process.

I really like midnight wheat over black prinz! I have both on hand right now, but i wont be buying more prinz!

I avoid astringency by avoiding black malt and using smaller amounts of Roasted when compared to black or chocolate. I also like to layer on the colored malt(depending on style obviously). I really like the Spec X/midnight wheat combo.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I use Chocolate 350 in my Porters, and I use Munich in the grain bill to offset the bitterness. I guess more than one way to skin a Cat

 

[Dave Y]

I really like midnight wheat over black prinz! I have both on hand right now, but i wont be buying more prinz!

I avoid astringency by avoiding black malt and using smaller amounts of Roasted when compared to black or chocolate. I also like to layer on the colored malt(depending on style obviously). I really like the Spec X/midnight wheat combo.

I forgot all about midnight wheat ! Solid choice.

I use Chocolate 350 in my Porters, and I use Munich in the grain bill to offset the bitterness. I guess more than one way to skin a Cat

indeed there is.

 

[Semper Sitientum]

All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Bigbre04]

All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.

this is my black lager(technically a schwartzbier) that i have brewed several times. Patrons have been requesting it lately which is pretty cool. it is non standard, but very good!

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1459018

 

[Donoroto]

Forum guys/gals:
One would think one could find this thread with the keywords “all-in-one-brewhouse-help-thread” or a variation of that search but one would be wrong. Even advanced search, removing the right most arguments one by one until you get too few arguments fails.

A bit off-topic, but text search never has worked for me here. I stopped trying long ago.

 

[Bigbre04]

A bit off-topic, but text search never has worked for me here. I stopped trying long ago.

@Yooper I am not really sure how to fix that

 

[Dave Y]

this is my black lager(technically a schwartzbier) that i have brewed several times. Patrons have been requesting it lately which is pretty cool. it is non standard, but very good!

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1459018

that looks more like east coast (pre prohibition) porter to me than schwarzbier, but TBF there’s quite a bit of overlap. I have both available now and there’s some commonality, but brown malt is typically the realm of porter. Nothing wrong with it in schwarzbier though.

All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.

While I understand and appreciate what beer judges do, I am not a big fan of subjective judging as it is almost always skewed by personal bias. In my local brew club, we have a few BJCP and former judges and my personal favorites are 1) “I get astringency” and 2) I get diacetyl.

There was a really objective guy there once who made some very astute observations about judging, correcting them with something like ‘you may perceive astringency, but you also may have a contaminate palette and you may sense diacetyl, but that’s a subjective observation, to be sure you’d need a chemical analysis’. I get your point though; I got beer of the month locally for a Märzen and I passed it by the closest BJCP judge I could find. He found it too sweet, not enough ‘bready’ character, gave me some feed back and famously told me ‘it’s a good beer and easy to drink, but I wouldn’t score it well to style’

BJCP rules are like the Pirate Code; they be more like guidelines than actual rules. ;-)

It’s like the judging of bronco riding, or bull riding as opposed to say barrel racing where there’s an objective time. The objectivity in beer judging is low, the subjective judging is high. That said, if you mashed in with Carafa and mashed an hour + and didn’t have something like corn to offset it ( well.. kind of ) then yeah you could get some bitter, astringent notes in the beer. So don’t get wrapped up about a poor score, but do consider the feedback you get.

 

[Bigbre04]

that looks more like east coast (pre prohibition) porter to me than schwarzbier, but TBF there’s quite a bit of overlap. I have both available now and there’s some commonality, but brown malt is typically the realm of porter. Nothing wrong with it in schwarzbier though.



While I understand and appreciate what beer judges do, I am not a big fan of subjective judging as it is almost always skewed by personal bias. In my local brew club, we have a few BJCP and former judges and my personal favorites are 1) “I get astringency” and 2) I get diacetyl.

There was a really objective guy there once who made some very astute observations about judging, correcting them with something like ‘you may perceive astringency, but you also may have a contaminate palette and you may sense diacetyl, but that’s a subjective observation, to be sure you’d need a chemical analysis’. I get your point though; I got beer of the month locally for a Märzen and I passed it by the closest BJCP judge I could find. He found it too sweet, not enough ‘bready’ character, gave me some feed back and famously told me ‘it’s a good beer and easy to drink, but I wouldn’t score it well to style’

BJCP rules are like the Pirate Code; they be more like guidelines than actual rules. ;-)

It’s like the judging of bronco riding, or bull riding as opposed to say barrel racing where there’s an objective time. The objectivity in beer judging is low, the subjective judging is high. That said, if you mashed in with Carafa and mashed an hour + and didn’t have something like corn to offset it ( well.. kind of ) then yeah you could get some bitter, astringent notes in the beer. So don’t get wrapped up about a poor score, but do consider the feedback you get.

cant argue that i is non standard and could probably be simplified, but it is a damn good black lager lol.

Dont get me started on Beer Judges or even worse Untappd...loathing is too light of a word.

 

[Yooper]

A bit off-topic, but text search never has worked for me here. I stopped trying long ago.

It seems to work for me, but choosing only the most important word (and no dashes, dots, commas, etc) seems best.

 

[Yooper]

cant argue that i is non standard and could probably be simplified, but it is a damn good black lager lol.

Dont get me started on Beer Judges or even worse Untappd...loathing is too light of a word.

Ouch. I'm a pretty good judge, and will judge according to style. I work with a grand master X or something like that once in a while, and she's awesome. Great palate, kind words, and helpful. Maybe you've just had some really bad luck with some competitions.

 

[Yooper]

I use an Anvil Foundry with recirculation. For my dark beers I mash all the malt at the same time. In reading up on the vorlauf process it states the benefit of adding dark malts during vorlauf is reduced astringency. Are there any other benefits I’m missing? Since I’m recirculating through the entire duration of the mash, am I not vorlaufing? If that’s the case, and I wanted to add the dark malts later in a 60 minute mash, when would I add them?

I know you've had LOTS of replies, but in my case I generally mash all my malts together too. But I do pay attention to mash pH, and make sure the amounts of black/roasted malts are appropriate.
If you want to add the dark malts later to have less flavor and astringency (particularly if your mash pH can't handle them), you can add them in the last 15 minutes of the mash and continue recirculation.

 

[Bigbre04]

Ouch. I'm a pretty good judge, and will judge according to style. I work with a grand master X or something like that once in a while, and she's awesome. Great palate, kind words, and helpful. Maybe you've just had some really bad luck with some competitions.

Nothing personal against judges themselves. I appreciate someone with a trained palate. But palate fatigue and personal opinions are real.

My frustration comes from years past. There is alot of luck in getting metals imo.

Untappd allows people who shouldn't review a beer to review it. Most commercial brewers dislike it alot.

 

[Craigerrr]

All good information and it definitely clarifies the process. I never read vorlauf was after mash out. Or, maybe I missed it. The reason I was looking at vorlauf was because I entered a schwarzbier in the National Homebrew Comp. with encouragement from my very biased friends. Anyway, it scored in the mid 30’s and comments were that it hit all the style points, but that the judges detected astringency. Obviously from the Carafa II. I don’t brew specifically for competition, but I do like feedback and this seems like an easy change to see if it makes a difference.

If you agree that you beer has some astringency, you could try "capping the mash" with your dark malts in the last 15 minutes of the mash. You could also try using a dehusked version of the carafe malt. This has the outer husk essentially partially removed which will reduce excessive bitterness, or astringency imparted.
Unless of course you disagree with the "judgement", and like your beer just the way it is. Style, shmyle perhaps...