Taste and carbonation differences bottled and kegged beer

[Zambi]

I've partly posted bits and pieces in other threads, but for ease of reading, here's the story
I brewed beer. Nothing strange there.
Fermented and when I figured it was close to finished, I filled a keg (8 litre oxebar) and 1 litre pet bottle.
When tasting yesterday, there was a heck of a difference in taste with the bottled beer being nice and the kegged being bleh....

Before I give the details, I know I can do things totally different, but that's not what I am after.
I want to know what went wrong in this specific process.

So, quite an easy wheat beer, fermented with Voss Kveik
When done, I attached a piece of pipe to the spigot of my (sanitised) keg. Pipe was long enough to reached to the bottom of the keg to minimise splashing.
I added sugar to the keg before siphoning. 3.5 gr per litre
Carefully transferred the beer and put a spunding valve on it.
I then put it into my cooler box for carbonation. After about a day, I let some gas escape, thinking that would help prevent oxidation. Other than that, the spunding valve was just there to follow the pressure built up.
I figure the temperature was about 32-33 oC and PSI got to around 22 and stayed there.
That seemed low and I thought that maybe the pressure was holding back the fermentation.
I then moved the keg to my fermentation fridge (it was in use before then) and left it for 5 days at 20.5 oC. PSI went to 18.
After 5 days, I reduced the temperature to 12.5 oC, and the next day to 5 oC
The day after (yesterday) PSI was 13.5 and I figured I should have a beer.

Clear Kveik tang. Orangy smell/taste, very very poor carbonation.
I gave it a burst of CO2 and left it alone.
I'll give it another burst this evening and put the spunding valve back to check pressure.

But I grabbed my bottle of beer. And this one was well carbonated, no tang, and only slight orangy smell/taste.
Actually a nice beer.

This bottle had about 7 gr sugar/litre and was filled via the spigot with a little splashing.
I squeezed the bottle before putting on the cap to remove as much air as possible.
After that it stayed with the keg, the whole time. Same cooler box, same time to fridge etc etc

Now why was the bottled beer so much nicer?
Did I now use enough sugar in the keg?
Was I wrong in letting some gas escape?
And how do I recover this beer?
(I can give bursts of CO2, but I can't leave it on permanently, except out of the fridge, but then I have to carbonate to a pressure exceeding the Pressure release Valve. Still hot here)

 

[Sunfire96]

My guess is letting the gas escape killed your carbonation. If you're yeast-conditioning your beer, they will consume any O2 from the transferring process, in theory.

 

[Zambi]

I didn't let everything escape, just a little.
I didn't write it down, but I think I let the part above 15 psi go.

Out of curiosity, I just poured another beer after the burst of CO2 I gave it yesterday evening and it is much improved (burst of 30 psi, this evening it said 14 on spunding valve. Poured a beer and gave another burst).

For the spunders: how high can your psi's go? Anyone ever gone over 25 psi or higher?

The pics (as post was written on laptop and pics on phone)

I gave it another burst after pouring

 

[Minbari]

Is there a noticable difference in carbonation?
Did your new kegs get cleaned really well? Maybe something in the plastic leached into your beer?

 

[Zambi]

Good points
Very very big difference in carbonation!
The keg is new, but used one time before and I didn't notice anything on first use.
Also when tasting this brew, I wasn't thinking off-flavour, but something not right.
After tonights pour, I'm really leaning towards carbonation.
Never expected it to cause such a huge d8fference though!

 

[Minbari]

Hopefully that is all it is. Not only the fizzy mouthfeel, but carbonic acid can effect flavor some

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

When tasting yesterday, there was a heck of a difference in taste with the bottled beer being nice and the kegged being bleh....

This is a classic description of a beer that has been oxidized, bleh.

For the spunders: how high can your psi's go? Anyone ever gone over 25 psi or higher?

I adjust the spunding pressure depending on the temperature of the beer. I just got done with a Helles. It finished fermenting (mostly) and the temperature rose from 50F (10C) to @ 55F (13C). The pressure through fermentation was kept at 5 psi, once the temperature came up, I started raising the pressure. I let it come up to @ 64F (18C) and I set the pressure on the spunding valve to 28 psi. If the temperature were to rise above that, I would have to raise the pressure to maintain the level of carbonation I had at 64F with 28 psi. Warm beer is hard to carbonate.

I have never gone above that pressure (28 psi), but I have heard of people in the 30's. Not all yeast respond well to this pressure. Personally, I would never pressure ferment with S04. 34/70 and 2124 respond really well to this pressure.

Bottom line is your spunding valve was set too low and I'm guessing the bottle had a better time with oxygen ingress.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Sorry I should have included this link to the carbonation calculator.


https://www.brewersfriend.com/keg-carbonation-calculator/

 

[GFHomebrew]

I was thinking carbonation levels help the Aromatics release from the beer the one you Chucked in the keg had bugger all carbonation but you said it tasted better after 30psi burst carbonation.

Undercarbonated beer is gunna taste lifeless compared to a carbonated version.

Yes definitely an oxidation potential transferring into you unpurged oxbar keg.

It's my understanding oxidation is an immediate staling effect.

FWIW I've transferred ginger beer into a purged keg then doused with priming sugar and it still refermented.

 

[Zambi]

This is a classic description of a beer that has been oxidized, bleh.

I adjust the spunding pressure depending on the temperature of the beer. I just got done with a Helles. It finished fermenting (mostly) and the temperature rose from 50F (10C) to @ 55F (13C). The pressure through fermentation was kept at 5 psi, once the temperature came up, I started raising the pressure. I let it come up to @ 64F (18C) and I set the pressure on the spunding valve to 28 psi. If the temperature were to rise above that, I would have to raise the pressure to maintain the level of carbonation I had at 64F with 28 psi. Warm beer is hard to carbonate.

I have never gone above that pressure (28 psi), but I have heard of people in the 30's. Not all yeast respond well to this pressure. Personally, I would never pressure ferment with S04. 34/70 and 2124 respond really well to this pressure.

Bottom line is your spunding valve was set too low and I'm guessing the bottle had a better time with oxygen ingress.

The "bleh" is more a failure on my part to describe the taste.

The spunding valve was closed, except obviously when I let out gas for a second or 2.
I merely used it to follow carbonation.
It went up to 22 psi. Not higher.
I've not had a problem carbonating bottles at high temperature.
I'm leaning towards not enough sugar or having let some gas out as the main problem

 

[Zambi]

Yes definitely an oxidation potential transferring into you unpurged oxbar keg.

It's my understanding oxidation is an immediate staling effect.

Thing is that I was not careful at all filling the pet bottle, so that one would have had a much higher chance of being oxidized.

Anyway, I'll have another glass this evening. Although it is my non-drinking day.
Ah, the sacrifises we make in the name of science!

Note: I will purge the keg with CO2 for my next batch as it looks like I have found someone that can fill my cylinder.
Are there quality differences in CO2 as this will be "standard" CO2, but I think that the people filling soda stream bottles use the same supplier?

 

[Minbari]

I use a welding supply store for mine

 

[GFHomebrew]

Thing is that I was not careful at all filling the pet bottle, so that one would have had a much higher chance of being oxidized.

Anyway, I'll have another glass this evening. Although it is my non-drinking day.
Ah, the sacrifises we make in the name of science!

Note: I will purge the keg with CO2 for my next batch as it looks like I have found someone that can fill my cylinder.
Are there quality differences in CO2 as this will be "standard" CO2, but I think that the people filling soda stream bottles use the same supplier?

If you can somehow push your fermenting co2 through it you could build this into your process .

Funny after talking to my workmate who bought them oxbar kegs as well I asked him how his Easter brew went.
He used 100g Galaxy in the dry hop.
He transferred his beer straight out the tap into the top of his keg free fall saying I'm not getting as much aroma as from your beer you gave me Ben .

Yeah that's oxidation me old mate.

We've all been there and have all done it. I certainly ain't judging.

It's beer right

 

[Zambi]

I use a welding supply store for mine

Great
And you are still alive
Mine would be coming from someone who uses it for welding as well

 

[Donoroto]

Less sugar is less carbonation.

More carbonation helped the taste, and clearly the beer absorbed it (30 to 14 psi).

Give it a burst of co2 again. It will get better.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I've not had a problem carbonating bottles at high temperature.

It's likely the pressure in the bottle was much higher. At 75F (24C) the pressure would exceed 31 psi. At 80F (26.6C) it would be 35 psi to give you @ 2.5 volumes. I carbonate to 2.7 volumes, the pressure would be 38 psi at 80F. Once the bottle is cooled, the temperature drops. If you cooled a 2.7 volume beer down to near freezing, the pressure would be just above 10 psi.

 

[Zambi]

Yeah, I'm sure it's the carbonation.
I gave it another burst yesterday after pouring and now (just before pouring another sample) it's at 14 psi (again)
Depending on taste & carbonation I'll keep giving it 30 psi bursts or top up (15 psi).

So, releasing some of the CO2 was obviously not a good idea.
Was my sugar amount OK?
I read somewhere that mini kegs take less sugar than bottles, so that's what I did.
This keg is 8 litre, but almost as high as a corny keg

Beer picture to follow as I'm ready for one

 

[Zambi]

It's likely the pressure in the bottle was much higher. At 75F (24C) the pressure would exceed 31 psi. At 80F (26.6C) it would be 35 psi to give you @ 2.5 volumes. I carbonate to 2.7 volumes, the pressure would be 38 psi at 80F. Once the bottle is cooled, the temperature drops. If you cooled a 2.7 volume beer down to near freezing, the pressure would be just above 10 psi.

Thanks!
That's actually what I expected to happen.
I'm just wondering why it didn't.

It's 1 or more of the following
- not enough sugar
- releasing some pressure, before closing spunding valve
- keg responds different to bottle due to ???

But I'm actually glad it is carbonation and I can solve it.
Those mistakes really give a lot more insight in the whole process!

 

[Zambi]

It's starting to look like a beer

And the orangy taste has reduced.
Now tasting a bit more lemon/lime. Much nicer and more like expected (as I added lemon peel)
Still no ginger though, so will double the amount next time.

I'm much happier now

 

[Zambi]

It's starting to look like a beer
View attachment 25114

And the orangy taste has reduced.
Now tasting a bit more lemon/lime. Much nicer and more like expected (as I added lemon peel)
Still no ginger though, so will double the amount next time.

I'm much happier now

I checked my recipe and I did not add lemon peel.
Only ginger
I think I should send my taste buds on a training course....