Sanitiser contribution to oxidation

[HighVoltageMan!]

Gash slug put me onto filling with water and dosing with Sodium Metabisulphate years ago that will scrub any oxygen outta the water and the vessel and sanitize at the same time.

Once again, Ben steals my thunder. This is the most practical solution to the problem. As homebrewers we are at a disadvantage with limited resources. The metabisulfite will reduce the oxygen in the purge water to a very low level, practically eliminating it.

I did some calculations with water (starsan) containing 4ppm of oxygen left in the keg. 2 ounces (56.8ml) left over in the keg will contribute @ 12ppb of oxygen. I got hammered on this on another forum arguing that's way too much left in a keg. But I was going for worst case condition. It's likely less than an ounce (28ml) is left behind, so it's down to 6ppb or so. Keep in mind the goal is less than 50ppb in a keg, every time the beer is transferred, or exposed to air, this number goes up . A thimble full of air will blow that number way up. If you hit 1ppm (that's 1000ppb) you beer is very short on life and will degrade quickly.

I have found that PMB in the beer at clearing can extend the life of the beer. I can't tell exactly how much free so2 there is because the calculations are very complex, so I assume the beer has 6-8ppm of free so2 in a 5 gallon (19L) keg with a 550mg addition of PMB. It does make a difference, especially in lagers. Hazy IPA's are even more critical when it comes to oxygen, thankfully I don't make them.

 

[Craigerrr]

Also, maybe you don't notice because it always is that way?
I know that really hoppy beers I make don't stay that way more than a few weeks. Willing to try that and see if it makes any difference

A very good point

 

[Bigbre04]

Once again, Ben steals my thunder. This is the most practical solution to the problem. As homebrewers we are at a disadvantage with limited resources. The metabisulfite will reduce the oxygen in the purge water to a very low level, practically eliminating it.

I did some calculations with water (starsan) containing 4ppm of oxygen left in the keg. 2 ounces (56.8ml) left over in the keg will contribute @ 12ppb of oxygen. I got hammered on this on another forum arguing that's way too much left in a keg. But I was going for worst case condition. It's likely less than an ounce (28ml) is left behind, so it's down to 6ppb or so. Keep in mind the goal is less than 50ppb in a keg, every time the beer is transferred, or exposed to air, this number goes up . A thimble full of air will blow that number way up. If you hit 1ppm (that's 1000ppb) you beer is very short on life and will degrade quickly.

I have found that PMB in the beer at clearing can extend the life of the beer. I can't tell exactly how much free so2 there is because the calculations are very complex, so I assume the beer has 6-8ppm of free so2 in a 5 gallon (19L) keg with a 550mg addition of PMB. It does make a difference, especially in lagers. Hazy IPA's are even more critical when it comes to oxygen, thankfully I don't make them.

This level of math is beyond my Friday afternoon comprehension lol.

Have you looked at ascorbic acid(vitamin c) as an alternative that could be added to the beer to chomp up oxygen with minimal flavor impact?

So I understand the argument for reducing o2, but how long are you realistically talking about keeping a 5 gal keg on draft?

With proper purging and good practices you should be more then fine without adding metabosulphate. I would think???

Most breweries assume a max of 60-90days on packaged goods. Kegs can last a lot longer, but some change is to be expected from day 1 to day 90.

My guess is yall are not purging properly.

Until you properly purge and blanket with CO2 the pickup from sanitizer water is a tiny drop in the tsunami.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Have you looked at ascorbic acid(vitamin c) as an alternative that could be added to the beer to chomp up oxygen with minimal flavor impact?

Without free so2, ascorbic acid will eventually release the oxygen and now it's free to do damage to the beer. The problem is that most people don't even realize they have a problem because the damage is subtle and slow. On top of that, it's so easy to get it into the beer.

I do purge correctly, or so I think I do. I know there is no such thing as a co2 "blanket", so I don't rely on that. The breweries I worked in are careful about it, but without test equipment it's nearly impossible to trouble shoot, so they often just guess they're doing a good job (just like me). Oxygen comes into the beer seemingly everywhere, but now I'm just rambling.

This video is both enlightening and discouraging at the same time:

I have resigned myself that I need to do what I can to reduce post fermentation, but I can't completely eliminate it.

I heard some good advice from Dr. Charlie Bamforth, he said he didn't understand why brewers didn't use sulfites to help with oxygen ingress. I took his advice and add just a touch to the beer and it seems to help a lot.

I think I need a beer.

 

[Bigbre04]

Without free so2, ascorbic acid will eventually release the oxygen and now it's free to do damage to the beer. The problem is that most people don't even realize they have a problem because the damage is subtle and slow. On top of that, it's so easy to get it into the beer.

I do purge correctly, or so I think I do. I know there is no such thing as a co2 "blanket", so I don't rely on that. The breweries I worked in are careful about it, but without test equipment it's nearly impossible to trouble shoot, so they often just guess they're doing a good job (just like me). Oxygen comes into the beer seemingly everywhere, but now I'm just rambling.

This video is both enlightening and discouraging at the same time:

I have resigned myself that I need to do what I can to reduce post fermentation, but I can't completely eliminate it.

I heard some good advice from Dr. Charlie Bamforth, he said he didn't understand why brewers didn't use sulfites to help with oxygen ingress. I took his advice and add just a touch to the beer and it seems to help a lot.

I think I need a beer.

100% on the beer.

We did relatively well with our DO(or so we thought) never heard any complaints and our shelf stability was acceptable.

I have used sulphites before, but that was prevent further fermentation in a fruited sour that was being packaged.

What do you do in breweries?

 

[GFHomebrew]

Do you get any Sulphur from it? I think we chatted about this in the past?

Commercial breweries us PAA but it's really dangerous when concentrated and I don't know that it's even available without going through a specialty supplier. Dosing rates are measured in ppm.

I use 100ml in 10gals of water for cleaning and that is medium to high level.

I use it both sides of my process adding to water to scrub 02 at kettle and for sanitizer so I guess it's a horses for courses thing do what works best for you.
And your ascorbic acid in conjunction with Metabisulphates and Brewtan B these are what the LoDo brewers call the Trifecta

Just adding to the discussion on my process.
Maybe I do get some sulphur from time to time but I'm not sure it's from this just lager yeast being lager yeast.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

What do you do in breweries?

I am not a pro by any means, I'm just an amateur who gets to play in the big boys sandbox.

I have brewed beer at 4 different breweries. One of them I built and designed the brewery control system, acting as the "system engineer". As such, I brewed a number of beers and would scale up my homebrews for the system from time to time. It was fun to see the beer being served. I also was put behind the bar to serve. My dream of opening brewery was dropped after working a while. It's hard work, with constant cleaning. It reminded me of working on a dairy farm. The cows need to milked twice a day, no matter what came up.

The other three I won BOS in competitions and they scaled up the beer.

I watched how each brewery handled post fermentation and two didn't fret too much about it and the other two were concerned enough to watch it closely. The two that were most concerned had some packaged or kegged distribution. Neither had a DO meter. The other two had such a high turn over of beer, it rarely lasted beyond 4-6 weeks of brewing.

At home I get anal about oxygen. The beers now last a lot longer in the keg. In the past I would get dinged for the beer being oxidized in home brew comp, but now it rarely gets any mention of it from the judges.

Some say the last thing to conqueror water chemistry. I think it's oxygen ingress, a never ending battle.

 

[Bigbre04]

I am not a pro by any means, I'm just an amateur who gets to play in the big boys sandbox.

I have brewed beer at 4 different breweries. One of them I built and designed the brewery control system, acting as the "system engineer". As such, I brewed a number of beers and would scale up my homebrews for the system from time to time. It was fun to see the beer being served. I also was put behind the bar to serve. My dream of opening brewery was dropped after working a while. It's hard work, with constant cleaning. It reminded me of working on a dairy farm. The cows need to milked twice a day, no matter what came up.

The other three I won BOS in competitions and they scaled up the beer.

I watched how each brewery handled post fermentation and two didn't fret too much about it and the other two were concerned enough to watch it closely. The two that were most concerned had some packaged or kegged distribution. Neither had a DO meter. The other two had such a high turn over of beer, it rarely lasted beyond 4-6 weeks of brewing.

At home I get anal about oxygen. The beers now last a lot longer in the keg. In the past I would get dinged for the beer being oxidized in home brew comp, but now it rarely gets any mention of it from the judges.

Some say the last thing to conqueror water chemistry. I think it's oxygen ingress, a never ending battle.

Dude that's really awesome! Were you doing plc programming as well as hmi? My last big brewery was a newlands 4 vessel 30bbl system that was heavily automated. We had constant gripes with the hmi, but newlands went under and they had password locked all the software....so....

I get where you are coming from on the DO. Some people are intensely sensitive to it. I can barely notice at anything below sensory training levels. That being said we were running hard and fast and did a fair amount of sensory as well as lab testing on our beer. We were generally very good on DO levels.

On my little 2 bbl the beer doesn't last long enough to matter. At the height of the summer we are running through 4 kegs per draftline(8 lines) in less then a month. But I'm also exclusively kegging.

 

[Donoroto]

I am not a pro by any means, I'm just an amateur who gets to play in the big boys sandbox.

I have brewed beer at 4 different breweries. One of them I built and designed the brewery control system, acting as the "system engineer". As such, I brewed a number of beers and would scale up my homebrews for the system from time to time. It was fun to see the beer being served. I also was put behind the bar to serve. My dream of opening brewery was dropped after working a while. It's hard work, with constant cleaning. It reminded me of working on a dairy farm. The cows need to milked twice a day, no matter what came up.

The other three I won BOS in competitions and they scaled up the beer.

I watched how each brewery handled post fermentation and two didn't fret too much about it and the other two were concerned enough to watch it closely. The two that were most concerned had some packaged or kegged distribution. Neither had a DO meter. The other two had such a high turn over of beer, it rarely lasted beyond 4-6 weeks of brewing.

At home I get anal about oxygen. The beers now last a lot longer in the keg. In the past I would get dinged for the beer being oxidized in home brew comp, but now it rarely gets any mention of it from the judges.

Some say the last thing to conqueror water chemistry. I think it's oxygen ingress, a never ending battle.

For certain, Water chemistry was easy compared to oxygen, as the stuff is everywhere. I think I have it mostly nailed though - right now my pale ale is 4 months in the keg and tastes just fine.

 

[Craigerrr]

I think that due to the fact that I frequently brew batches with higher volumes of whirlpool and dry hops, this is something that I need to dive into!

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Were you doing plc programming as well as hmi?

I wish. The budget was low, so I designed a 3 vessel PID electric system. It works well, but it's still definitely hands on. 65kW total power for the HLT and boil. The mash was at first HERMS off the HLT, but it worked better as a single infusion mash.

 

[Minbari]

So I purged @20psi for about 5 minutes. gas coming out had a "co2 smell"

Now doing my first pressure transfer. 2-3psi

 

[Bigbre04]

So I purged @20psi for about 5 minutes. gas coming out had a "co2 smell"

Now doing my first pressure transfer. 2-3psiView attachment 28216

Was the co2 smell strong enough to make you recoil away? Like take your breath away?

If you can run your co2 tank straight take a nice quick snort of it upclose To feel what it feels like. You are shooting for fully co2 coming out the top.

Its always important to leave the "brite" under a touch of pressure and then relieve the pressure once you start transferring to prevent o2 from coming while you setup.

What is the black filter looking thing in line?

Looks like you are transferring beer?

I don't know those kegs very well, but I assume you are transferring into the outlet tube side and venting out that small vent at the top?

I would shut the vent once you are close to fully transferred and let the pressure from the fermenter transfer into the keg. How much pressure will those ss fermenters hold?

 

[Minbari]

Was the co2 smell strong enough to make you recoil away? Like take your breath away?

If you can run your co2 tank straight take a nice quick snort of it upclose To feel what it feels like. You are shooting for fully co2 coming out the top.

Its always important to leave the "brite" under a touch of pressure and then relieve the pressure once you start transferring to prevent o2 from coming while you setup.

What is the black filter looking thing in line?

Looks like you are transferring beer?

I don't know those kegs very well, but I assume you are transferring into the outlet tube side and venting out that small vent at the top?

I would shut the vent once you are close to fully transferred and let the pressure from the fermenter transfer into the keg. How much pressure will those ss fermenters hold?

Ya, it has a spicy co2 smell. Co2 has a distinctive smell.

Yes, transferring beer.
It is an inline filter, keeps the goop out of the keg, I don't have a Brite tank, so next best thing. Ya, that is the liquid out connection, so it will fill from the bottom up.

That one is only rated 3psi

 

[Bigbre04]

Ya, it has a spicy co2 smell. Co2 has a distinctive smell.

Yes, transferring beer.
It is an inline filter, keeps the goop out of the keg, I don't have a Brite tank, so next best thing. Ya, that is the liquid out connection, so it will fill from the bottom up.

That one is only rated 3psi

Be sure that you purge that filter and your hoses! Looks good to me! I hope it holds up for ya!

 

[GFHomebrew]

Hey another o2 free type fermentation aid is fermenting and serving from the same vessel.

Any residual o2 is scrubbed by the yeast.
No transferring so no o2 pickup.
And on the cold crash no suckback and plus side is spunded to gain a little more co2 absorbtion before carbonation.

I've been doing this a bit of late.

I love how easy it is!

And I know I'm not the only one on here doing this...

 

[Minbari]

Hey another o2 free type fermentation aid is fermenting and serving from the same vessel.

Any residual o2 is scrubbed by the yeast.
No transferring so no o2 pickup.
And on the cold crash no suckback and plus side is spunded to gain a little more co2 absorbtion before carbonation.

I've been doing this a bit of late.

I love how easy it is!

And I know I'm not the only one on here doing this...

you dont get any weirdness from leaving the beer on the trub and yeast?

 

[GFHomebrew]

you dont get any weirdness from leaving the beer on the trub and yeast?

Nope well not for my already weird Gluten Free beer .

I think it keeps fresh as a batch I've racked to keg.
.obviously floating diptube needed.
And I noticed the other night with that Extract batch I did it's quite trubby at the end of the keg I still drunk em though. Lol

I've not done a lager yet though these have been wheat beers XPA and that rice malt extract blond ale thing.

 

[Craigerrr]

After either spunding, or just fermenting under pressure I transfer from floating dip tube in fermenter, no o2 in there (second picture). Keg will have maybe 100ml of starsan in the bottom after being purged by pushing sanitizer our with co2. I have always thought of this as being bullet proof for preventing o2 ingress.
After venting gas from fermenter and keg, then attaching gas line with about 2psi, I attach the gas line on the receiving keg to allow co2 out to allow flow. Receiving keg is on the left, keg on the right is just my sanitizer storage keg.

 

[GFHomebrew]

After either spunding, or just fermenting under pressure I transfer from floating dip tube in fermenter, no o2 in there (second picture). Keg will have maybe 100ml of starsan in the bottom after being purged by pushing sanitizer our with co2. I have always thought of this as being bullet proof for preventing o2 ingress.
After venting gas from fermenter and keg, then attaching gas line with about 2psi, I attach the gas line on the receiving keg to allow co2 out to allow flow.
View attachment 28227View attachment 28226

Mate that's much better than how I do it!
I used to push the sanitiser out now I just send the gas through the keg and call it done.

Oh and now there is this from kegland

OMG


I guess if I were hopping my beers as much as you well I'd be a bit more anal.