Thanks so much, I really appreciate it! It was fun to talk with Laura, Keith and Bianca and I learned a lot.
I never brew German wheat beers because of the clove (not my favorite), but I'm thinking of doing a stout with Bananza - a banana stout, leaning on the chocolate more than the roast maybe - sounds interesting.
My brew buddies and I have done quite a few Hefe brews over the last few years and we think we have the following nailed down:
1) if you want traditional balance between clove and banana (á la Weihenstephaner) you need to mash in about 100℉, do a Ferulic Acid rest at 113℉ or so, then bump to your favorite regular mash rests (one or more, say 142℉ and 156℉). We just did this with a double decoction and the results were stunning. (we also trialed some bottle-conditioned with Speise and they turned out fantastic.) Use a long boil, at least 90 minutes, but 100 would be better. (to give enough time to convert Ferulic Acid to 4-vinylguaiacol)
2) If you want to mute the clove, or like we did once, eliminate it and make a banana bomb, then you absolutely *must skip* the Ferulic Acid rest. Under-pitch, or just don't make a starter, and don't bother with oxygenation beyond whatever splashing occurs to knock the wort from kettle to fermenter. This will cause some slight stress on the yeast, and encourage ester production of Isoamyl Acetate, aka – banana. Then during fermentation, set the temp to the top of your strain's range, but, and this is critical, be certain to use a fermenter of a size, such that the width of the wort surface is greater than the depth of the wort. (and open ferment till Krausen drops - no blow off, no air lock either, till then) The key reason for these dimensions and the open fermentation is to reduce osmotic pressure on the yeast, which will enhance the esters (banana) and reduce phenols (clove). You can leave a lid or foil loosely on till the Krausen kicks off, but after that, you can safely remove it till it drops. Bugs don't like the CO2 during that active time.
The fermenter dimensions are important no matter which route you take unless you want a clove bomb, or you like to struggle with nailing a flavor profile. (note, we used a BSG 7.5gal bucket for a 5.5gal to fermenter sized batch, and it was perfect for this) We found no need to ferment low to enhance clove as the Ferulic Acid rest and long boil did the job. We just needed to make sure the yeast wouldn't suppress the banana esters it wanted to make.
I'll also add that I've been convinced by the results that at least one if not two decoctions really do raise these beers to the next level. You don't have to do them, but you won't regret the effort by the result. We did side-by-side brews of decoctions and single infusions for Hefe and Dunkelweisse and it was no contest in a blind taste test. Decocted wheat beers also have much longer flavor and aroma stability in the keg and the bottle.
So far, we've only used the most popular WLP and Wyeast Hefe strains to nearly equal effect. We've also put the above (strains included) into practice for a Dunkelweisse, as well as a desert version of the same we dubbed Banana Split. (including Chocolate malt as you mentioned) We've just tried Bananza (and Sundew, separately) in a NEIPA, but plan to drop some of each (separately) in a future Dunkelweisse or our latest Banana Split batch to see what it can do. While we noticed moderate banana aroma and flavor in the NEIPA, we find that you need a minimum 50% wheat to really get prominent banana expression.
