Need help identifying off-flavor

[GFHomebrew]

Great idea Ben , even your local brew club may have some bjcp certified judges they can give you feedback , be prepared to get your feelings hurt though

Yep I remember back to the comp I partook in and thought why should someone enter that into a comp maybe this is the reason.

 

[Edan Z]

Well, next week I'll do another batch with some changes:

1. I'll get some PBW for cleaning instead of that chlorine stuff.
2. Use distilled water to prepare the StarSan just in case.
3. New bucket
4. Ferment in my sanitized electric wine cellar at controlled temps
5. Do diacetyl rest when 80% FG reached
6. Get beer off the yeast as soon as FG is stabilized over three days

Does that sound like a good place to start?

 

[CRUNK]

I have no feelings which also means I don't have to buy as many Christmas cards I love it

 

[J A]

Get beer off the yeast as soon as FG is stabilized over three days

That's definitely not necessary or desirable. The yeast is consuming undesirable by-products of fermentation pretty much until it uses up everything it can find to metabolize. If you have a clean environment, you should be able to leave the beer in the primary fermenter for weeks... until you're ready to rack it off to keg or bottling bucket.
All the other stuff makes sense.

 

[sn00ky]

That's definitely not necessary or desirable. The yeast is consuming undesirable by-products of fermentation pretty much until it uses up everything it can find to metabolize. If you have a clean environment, you should be able to leave the beer in the primary fermenter for weeks... until you're ready to rack it off to keg or bottling bucket.
All the other stuff makes sense.

+1 to that

I like glass fermenters since you can "see" the activity inside most times, (up and downs of yeasties, just makes me giddy when I see it) and if you look at it frequently, without opening and allowing your co2 to escape, then you can make a good guess as to when you are at 80 ish %. Doesn't need to be exact, and effort to be should suffice IMO.

 

[Nosybear]

Well, next week I'll do another batch with some changes:

1. I'll get some PBW for cleaning instead of that chlorine stuff.
2. Use distilled water to prepare the StarSan just in case.
3. New bucket
4. Ferment in my sanitized electric wine cellar at controlled temps
5. Do diacetyl rest when 80% FG reached
6. Get beer off the yeast as soon as FG is stabilized over three days

Does that sound like a good place to start?

I don't know if I'd try all that at once: You won't know what worked. Here's my take on it: Losing the chlorine cleaner is probably the best idea. I use distilled water to prepare my Star San because it makes the stuff last nearly forever - no calcium to react with and deactivate the solution. New bucket: If you don't see any scratches or places where bacteria could hide, likely not necessary. Fermenting at controlled temperatures is a great idea but unless you're brewing lagers, just find a cool place in the basement and put the bucket in a big tub of water - that'll stabilize the fermentation temperature just fine. A diacetyl rest is likely not necessary unless you're doing a lager and pitching warm and getting the beer off the yeast won't help much - it takes months for autolysis to set in when the yeast is stored under the beer it made. Of all the stuff you list, losing the chlorine cleaner and stabilizing the fermentation temps will likely have the most effect. I'd start there.

 

[J A]

^^^What he said.^^^

 

[Edan Z]

Of all the stuff you list, losing the chlorine cleaner and stabilizing the fermentation temps will likely have the most effect. I'd start there.

^^^What he said.^^^

Duly noted.

BTW, it's been one full week after bottling. The yeast is not done yet, still in suspension, but I put a bottle in the freezer for a couple of hours, then in the fridge for another 2h. I would say that the off flavor is definitely going away. I can now perceive that the off has receded to a faint rancid butter note. It may very well be diacetyl.

 

[Gledison]

hi, trying to Play with the chemistry here.., if smells like a bad wine could be some Aldehyde, acetolactate. This come from the yeast growth as side product. The acetolactate is converted to diacetyl in the beer catalised by higher temps. a GC/MS would help a lot
if you dont bother to send a bottle to Germany, i would love to try to help... by the way, did you mesure the ph of the beer now? could give you a good indication of acids present.
good luck

 

[Edan Z]

GC/MS would help a lot

haha! yeah, maybe I'll send a bottle to my old research lab for testing!

Seriously, Germany is just next door, PM me your address, and I'll send one out in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Edan Z]

4 Week update:

I was reading on a french brewing workshop's website that they instruct everyone to let their beers condition in the bottles "until the rancid butter flavors disappear." They actually recommend 1 week of conditioning for each alcohol percentage point.

Well, after 3 weeks carbing up, plus two weeks cold conditioning at 4ºC, I'm happy to report that the off flavor is completely gone.
This leads me to believe that what I was tasting was that "rancid butter" taste.

In any case, at this point, the beer is turning out quite nice, like a cross between a chimay and a westmalle tripel. What's more, I resisted the urge to drink it all while it was green. I still have a case left!

P.S. I still made a few changes to my latest batch (yesterday). Tossed the Chlorine based cleaner and I'm fermenting in a temperature controlled wine cabinet.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Patience is a virtue...

 

[The Green Man]

4 Week update:

I was reading on a french brewing workshop's website that they instruct everyone to let their beers condition in the bottles "until the rancid butter flavors disappear." They actually recommend 1 week of conditioning for each alcohol percentage point.

Well, after 3 weeks carbing up, plus two weeks cold conditioning at 4ºC, I'm happy to report that the off flavor is completely gone.
This leads me to believe that what I was tasting was that "rancid butter" taste.

In any case, at this point, the beer is turning out quite nice, like a cross between a chimay and a westmalle tripel. What's more, I resisted the urge to drink it all while it was green. I still have a case left!

P.S. I still made a few changes to my latest batch (yesterday). Tossed the Chlorine based cleaner and I'm fermenting in a temperature controlled wine cabinet.

I've not been at this long either, but there's no doubt that 'time is a great healer'. About a month in the bottle does wonders. I brewed a couple of Belgians and they improved a lot over time. I think those yeasts also throw off a lot of odd flavours too, some of these definitely seemed to go / mature in time.

 

[Edan Z]

those yeasts also throw off a lot of odd flavours too

I've only brewed with Belgian yeast so far, mainly because I only drink Trappist commercial beer, but for my next batch I'll be looking to use a cleaner "US-05 type" yeast for sure and see what difference that makes in terms of conditioning time.

This latest Belgian turned out really nice, but I bet a couple more weeks at 4ºC and it will be even better.

This was today, after 2 weeks in the fridge:

 

[GFHomebrew]

I've only brewed with Belgian yeast so far, mainly because I only drink Trappist commercial beer, but for my next batch I'll be looking to use a cleaner "US-05 type" yeast for sure and see what difference that makes in terms of conditioning time.

This latest Belgian turned out really nice, but I bet a couple more weeks at 4ºC and it will be even better.

This was today, after 2 weeks in the fridge:

The Chico yeast strain may be more forgiving in regards to underpitching-under oxygenation-poor temperature control. Not saying that this has been your case but just this belgium yeast may be more caracterful and flavours may change as a result of any of the above.

Check out brulosophy new exbeeriment its a yeast temp one worth a read me thinks.

Oh and great looking beer you mind if i have a glass.

 

[EastVicLad]

How long was it conditioned for before tasting?

 

[Edan Z]

How long was it conditioned for before tasting?

3 weeks @ 70ºF and 2 weeks @ 36ºF. The more time it spends in the cold, the cleaner it tastes. Very interesting.

 

[EastVicLad]

Yeah more than likely the flavours your talking about comes from not conditioning long enough... In Aust we call it green beer... I was always told to not try your brew for a minimum of 1 month but 2 is prefered for some beers like European lagers