JAPANESE LAGER (KIND OF)

[Bigbre04]

Another idea: When I add sugars for an ESB or a Saison with the brew bag, I mash without the sugar. I lift the bag, and while the liquid is draining from the bag or just after, I will add the sugar to the kettle before I put the heat back on to begin the boil. The sugar gets some time to incorporate that way without the direct heat and the possible burning involved from the direct heat. If you are adding sugar and syrup to a kettle with the heat on, make sure you are stirring.
My Blichmann Burner gets hotter than hell. They actually call it a Hellfire. I am careful about what I do considering I can get 110,000 BTUs.

my only issue with that timing that you can scorch the sugar if you are using direct fire. the sugar can hydrate and sit at the bottom and get burned. thats why i try to add it while im at a rolling boil(it disolves faster and the movement helps to distribute it so it doesnt burn(even though im using an electric system).

I guess that with direct fire you really have to stir it in at either time???

 

[Sandy Feet]

I haven't needed to add a huge bunch of sugar, so I guess I didn't really think about it settling. When the bag is drained, I'm still probably at 135 or 140 degrees, so it melts fairly well. The only time I normally stir during the boil is when hops are added as they stick to the kettle. I only use one vessel. Simplicity at its finest

 

[Bigbre04]

I haven't needed to add a huge bunch of sugar, so I guess I didn't really think about it settling. When the bag is drained, I'm still probably at 135 or 140 degrees, so it melts fairly well. The only time I normally stir during the boil is when hops are added as they stick to the kettle. I only use one vessel. Simplicity at its finest

Im only one vessel too! Iv actually found hardened(not burned just solidified) Brewer's crystal at the bottom of my kettle after 20 mins of boil, 40 mins of whirlpool and rest, and about 30 mins of knockout. That stuff is such a pain in the butt to clean up. it becomes rock candy as soon as it hits humidity.

Ya if you think about it, the bottom of your kettle is screaming hot even when the liquid is at 140 since that is where all your energy is going in to bring it to a boil. If you sugars settle down there they can burn. I have seen wort burn onto a 10 bbl direct fire system if we didnt stir it...oh the classic rock bottom copper clad brew house...memory lane.

 

[Brews Bros]

Another idea: When I add sugars for an ESB or a Saison with the brew bag, I mash without the sugar. I lift the bag, and while the liquid is draining from the bag or just after, I will add the sugar to the kettle before I put the heat back on to begin the boil. The sugar gets some time to incorporate that way without the direct heat and the possible burning involved from the direct heat. If you are adding sugar and syrup to a kettle with the heat on, make sure you are stirring.
My Blichmann Burner gets hotter than hell. They actually call it a Hellfire. I am careful about what I do considering I can get 110,000 BTUs.

thanks for your recommandation , i come back to your idea on a previous message, if i understand it right , you suggest me to remove totally the rice and just keep the brown rice sugar right??

 

[Brews Bros]

Im only one vessel too! Iv actually found hardened(not burned just solidified) Brewer's crystal at the bottom of my kettle after 20 mins of boil, 40 mins of whirlpool and rest, and about 30 mins of knockout. That stuff is such a pain in the butt to clean up. it becomes rock candy as soon as it hits humidity.

Ya if you think about it, the bottom of your kettle is screaming hot even when the liquid is at 140 since that is where all your energy is going in to bring it to a boil. If you sugars settle down there they can burn. I have seen wort burn onto a 10 bbl direct fire system if we didnt stir it...oh the classic rock bottom copper clad brew house...memory lane.

well noted this , so maybe , i can add the sugar just (liquid form) before the boil point so i can stir , but no need to stir and stress for too long.... i have different system but the one i use the more is 52l all in one system (chinese one ) so i understand the cleaning problem, about the bottom, already a lot, but the good side is i get a good left arm now

 

[Brews Bros]

No, not stupidity. You are smart!

Medicinal can be described also as band-aid or plastic. Hard to decribe.

It could be chlorine or chloramine in the water. Or it coukd be an infection with a wild yeast or brettomyces.

Visit this website to learn more about bad flavors in beer https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/

really clear and efficient this explanation...
based on this , i can say i recognize the
and for your possibility you can remove chlorine and chloramine we don t have this in our water.... but it will come one day

14. Dimethyl Sulfide (DMS)​

but not in what they call "perceived as", this i really don t know , but if not

i m in the humidity problem , humidity right now , it s monsoon time , 130%
i mean everything get moldy, ok ok if you live with AC and closed no problem , but i don t...
if not at the driest of the year should be for one month at 85%(mars or april )

this lager use a lot of pilsner (75.5%),
i boil only 60 minutes, my boil is good but cannot say amazing vigourous....

about the yeast , i always harvest my east and this one i harvest maybe less then 50 times, ok 45 , but yesterday i brewed a motueka pale ale and it break my heart but i throw away my yeast and start from zero with lallemand kveik voss dry yeast 11g ,22g for 42l fermentor, mixed with wort (cooled to ambiant temperature before... so should solve an other problem too.....

and kind of infection , which is possible too, but tired of this , i just bought a bucket of PBW 7.2kg for more then 3.000.000 dong.....erffff, hope it s kind of magic at this price , so i will keep it for keg and fermentor basically and reuse it at least 4 different time by keeping it in a closed bucket.... i will use pbw before starsan the brewday and everything as already being cleaned after the last brew with "dish soap" to remove all particles and clear as much as i can......

well, that s my plan right now and it start already , tomorrow i will boil this japanese lager for 90 minutes, yeast i still open

thanks for your feed back

 

[Brews Bros]

yes and by the way , i asked my friend who has the last keg with this bad flavor, to keep it and wait fews days , trying everyday, it seems to go off little after 3 or 4 days but still present in the beer.....
and about , my "process": fermentation 3/4 days based on activity and , cold crashing 2 days, force carbonating at 28 psi for about 2/3 minutes (shaking it properly),
and that goes to a (kegerator "fridge" for service....
i mean i should integrate a rest time at some point no ??? , what do you think please

 

[Bigbre04]

really clear and efficient this explanation...
based on this , i can say i recognize the
and for your possibility you can remove chlorine and chloramine we don t have this in our water.... but it will come one day

14. Dimethyl Sulfide (DMS)​

but not in what they call "perceived as", this i really don t know , but if not

DMS is generally described as cooked corn or cream of corn, which you may not have had before.

How are you cooling from boil? you need to cool fairly quickly OR knock out hot into the fermenter and then pitch the yeast the next day or whenever your temp is right.(others on here are better sources for this then i am)

https://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/

i m in the humidity problem , humidity right now , it s monsoon time , 130%
i mean everything get moldy, ok ok if you live with AC and closed no problem , but i don t...
if not at the driest of the year should be for one month at 85%(mars or april )

this lager use a lot of pilsner (75.5%),
i boil only 60 minutes, my boil is good but cannot say amazing vigourous....

My boil is not super strong either, that isnt a big deal

about the yeast , i always harvest my east and this one i harvest maybe less then 50 times, ok 45 , but yesterday i brewed a motueka pale ale and it break my heart but i throw away my yeast and start from zero with lallemand kveik voss dry yeast 11g ,22g for 42l fermentor, mixed with wort (cooled to ambiant temperature before... so should solve an other problem too.....

Generally, you dont want to harvest yeast more then 10 generations. At 50 repitches, that yeast will be completely different. This is also a heavy source of possible infections. How do you harvest yeast?

and kind of infection , which is possible too, but tired of this , i just bought a bucket of PBW 7.2kg for more then 3.000.000 dong.....erffff, hope it s kind of magic at this price , so i will keep it for keg and fermentor basically and reuse it at least 4 different time by keeping it in a closed bucket.... i will use pbw before starsan the brewday and everything as already being cleaned after the last brew with "dish soap" to remove all particles and clear as much as i can......

PBW is a pretty decent cleaning product. overall it is fairly safe. Just be sure that you rinse it out and follow it with a leave in Sanitizer like star san/iodiphor/paa.

Are you using plastic fermenters? if you are be careful to avoid scratching them as this can hold infection. PBW is a very good cleaning chemical.

well, that s my plan right now and it start already , tomorrow i will boil this japanese lager for 90 minutes, yeast i still open

thanks for your feed back

Good Luck! You got this!

 

[Brews Bros]

ok and i will incorporate the liquid form brown rice sugar at 30 min end of boil ???

DMS is generally described as cooked corn or cream of corn, which you may not have had before.

How are you cooling from boil? you need to cool fairly quickly OR knock out hot into the fermenter and then pitch the yeast the next day or whenever your temp is right.(others on here are better sources for this then i am)

https://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/


My boil is not super strong either, that isnt a big deal

Generally, you dont want to harvest yeast more then 10 generations. At 50 repitches, that yeast will be completely different. This is also a heavy source of possible infections. How do you harvest yeast?

PBW is a pretty decent cleaning product. overall it is fairly safe. Just be sure that you rinse it out and follow it with a leave in Sanitizer like star san/iodiphor/paa.

Are you using plastic fermenters? if you are be careful to avoid scratching them as this can hold infection. PBW is a very good cleaning chemical.


Good Luck! You got this!

hey mate, thanks for the support,
i harvest my yeast just after finish kegging , i usually use the wort left in the fermenter , agitate the fermenter in a gentle way , to mix with the yeast , then drop this mix in my glass jar.... after 2 days in the fridge i remove the "beer" at the top........and keep only the yeast.
( i didn t speak about sanitation but everything sanitize before use , and a spray of "starsan" with me , that i use everywhere to avoid problem, at least try to avoid it).
ok well noted , i have to accept to buy dry yeast more often (but this voss is crazy expensive here )
when i use harvested yeast , i put 100G for 42/44 liters......

(cooling is a big difficulty here)i m cooling my boil with a simple coil i plunge in my all in one 10 min before the end of boiling, then use water to reach 46/47 degrees, i cannot do more with water..... then i use ice bucket with aquarium pump to reach 32 degrees.
i m really thinking that i should change my way of doing this , by using only water to go to around 60 degrees (in order to be fast) , then transfer to my fermenter and wait the morning after to pitch yeast....(what the problem if my beer sit for example 8 hours at 32 degrees (ambiant temperature) without pitching yeast, is it a problem???

my fermenter are 50 liters plastic fermenters, you are right, and yes i m careful when cleaning as i totally understand that scratching will be a nest for everything...( i have 5 fermenter 50l and 2 fermenters 25l (plastic too)...

thanks a lot.

 

[Bigbre04]

ok and i will incorporate the liquid form brown rice sugar at 30 min end of boil ???

I brewed a belgian tripel today. I preheated(with 65c water) the packets of candi sugar and it still killed my boil. I was thinking about it the timing further today. I also base my recipe around the sugar additions being boil additions so that effects the preboil that I am looking for.

hey mate, thanks for the support,

It's a journey! I'm learning a lot by researching about rice and I'm happy to share anything that I can to help you out.

i harvest my yeast just after finish kegging , i usually use the wort left in the fermenter , agitate the fermenter in a gentle way , to mix with the yeast , then drop this mix in my glass jar.... after 2 days in the fridge i remove the "beer" at the top........and keep only the yeast.

I wouldn't dump out the beer off the top. I don't think it hurts anything and that's one less time opening the jar to infection.

( i didn t speak about sanitation but everything sanitize before use , and a spray of "starsan" with me , that i use everywhere to avoid problem, at least try to avoid it).
ok well noted , i have to accept to buy dry yeast more often (but this voss is crazy expensive here )
when i use harvested yeast , i put 100G for 42/44 liters......

So there is a separate idea thar once you have something going for that long, it is not the original strain. Instead may e it's best to think about it as your "house" strain. As long as it is still tasting good and performing for you, that is fine.

(cooling is a big difficulty here)i m cooling my boil with a simple coil i plunge in my all in one 10 min before the end of boiling, then use water to reach 46/47 degrees, i cannot do more with water..... then i use ice bucket with aquarium pump to reach 32 degrees.
i m really thinking that i should change my way of doing this , by using only water to go to around 60 degrees (in order to be fast) , then transfer to my fermenter and wait the morning after to pitch yeast....(what the problem if my beer sit for example 8 hours at 32 degrees (ambiant temperature) without pitching yeast, is it a problem???

I think that this method might work well for yiu. I would try it out. My gear is very different so I don't really have much too add fo this. Look up short and shoddy podcast they are all about. It.

my fermenter are 50 liters plastic fermenters, you are right, and yes i m careful when cleaning as i totally understand that scratching will be a nest for everything...( i have 5 fermenter 50l and 2 fermenters 25l (plastic too)...

thanks a lot.

 

[Brews Bros]

hello guys and thanks for all you support.

just to give you a feedback on this beer

well now it s drinkable , it s ok , but a lot of care for a 5 on 10 beer. not amazing but drinkable.
i think because of excessive humidity all the time and base malt, i really need to boil 90 min, but i destroying slowly my all in one because of burn at the bottom of the kettle.... i ve tried , vinegar, baking soda.... bla bla bla..... remove but still some black stain on the bottom
any way , my friend want to provide a rice beer , but after all this try , i m still not happy with the result.... the experience with brown rice sugar syrup is ok but no taste, i cannot get this dry, crispy taste suppose to be a rice beer,.........
so, at the end, i think my problem was an infection in my harvested yeast....but because of this i made a new process to all my cleaning and sanitising , wich is always good.

i need to try others beers now , so i will forgot this dry beer , but will be back on it because i really don t like to not success to have at least a good rice lager beer.
thanks again on this , see you all in others discussions...
brews bros

 

[Bigbre04]

hello guys and thanks for all you support.

just to give you a feedback on this beer

well now it s drinkable , it s ok , but a lot of care for a 5 on 10 beer. not amazing but drinkable.
i think because of excessive humidity all the time and base malt, i really need to boil 90 min, but i destroying slowly my all in one because of burn at the bottom of the kettle.... i ve tried , vinegar, baking soda.... bla bla bla..... remove but still some black stain on the bottom
any way , my friend want to provide a rice beer , but after all this try , i m still not happy with the result.... the experience with brown rice sugar syrup is ok but no taste, i cannot get this dry, crispy taste suppose to be a rice beer,.........
so, at the end, i think my problem was an infection in my harvested yeast....but because of this i made a new process to all my cleaning and sanitising , wich is always good.

i need to try others beers now , so i will forgot this dry beer , but will be back on it because i really don t like to not success to have at least a good rice lager beer.
thanks again on this , see you all in others discussions...
brews bros

Sorry to hear it didn't work out! Keep improving!

Thanks for the update.

 

[Sandy Feet]

Temperature plays a big factor. Humidity isn't going to matter too much outside of boil off rate as you have liquid being fermented, right? I live in a VERY humid area, especially in the summer. It is a matter of keeping things sanitized with a sanitizer like StarSan and trying to control temps as best as possible with a yeast that tolerates the temps you have. I have a plastic Fermonster that I bought for $30. It works well with the correct temps. I use a wort chiller to try to bring temps down and a refrigerator for lagers. If you don't keep things sanitized, you don't have the patience to let things ferment the length of time they are supposed to, you don't have proper temperature control for the yeast you are using, and you can't harvest using a sanitary method, you aren't going to have very good beer. That is Mother Nature.
When I didn't know any better, I made very crappy beer with the old Mr. Beer kits back in the day. Little to no boiling, bad temperature control, and they generally tasted like shit. The ones I make now with a proper mash (I only go 60 minutes on the boil and 70 minutes in the mash) and a refrigerator are pretty damn good for my palette.

 

[Donoroto]

hello guys and thanks for all you support.

just to give you a feedback on this beer

well now it s drinkable , it s ok , but a lot of care for a 5 on 10 beer. not amazing but drinkable.
i think because of excessive humidity all the time and base malt, i really need to boil 90 min, but i destroying slowly my all in one because of burn at the bottom of the kettle.... i ve tried , vinegar, baking soda.... bla bla bla..... remove but still some black stain on the bottom
any way , my friend want to provide a rice beer , but after all this try , i m still not happy with the result.... the experience with brown rice sugar syrup is ok but no taste, i cannot get this dry, crispy taste suppose to be a rice beer,.........
so, at the end, i think my problem was an infection in my harvested yeast....but because of this i made a new process to all my cleaning and sanitising , wich is always good.

i need to try others beers now , so i will forgot this dry beer , but will be back on it because i really don t like to not success to have at least a good rice lager beer.
thanks again on this , see you all in others discussions...
brews bros

Can you set the all-in-one to use less power? It might get some tan or brown at the bottom, but should not be black. A 90 minute boil is not harmful, just takes longer.

 

[Brews Bros]

Can you set the all-in-one to use less power? It might get some tan or brown at the bottom, but should not be black. A 90 minute boil is not harmful, just takes longer.

no cannot , but i abuse too , i fill up at the maximum , 52,5 litres.... so i think not easy for the machine who is set up to stop at 45 liters maximum....
anyway no big difference of clarity with a 90 min boil , so come back to 60 minutes and do mash 60 minutes with iodine test.