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That cap is more hole than metal.
Very Bionic...
Experimental side by side brewing.
- Thread starter GFHomebrew
- Start date
Very Bionic...
I was meaning any fittings that MIGHT contact the wort, such as any adapters or fittings on a home-made counterflow chiller (since I'm talking about copper coolers in general with Ben).
The inside of a typical brass/bronze fitting for copper pipe is just as brass/bronze as the outside. Both bronze/brass contain zinc/tin as well as lead, bronze more zinc, brass more tin. Neither of which is good and will readily leach to lower pH liquids, being pretty much being designed for 7.0+ pH (city/potable water). If they're not touching the wort (as mine has NO fittings on it at all) it's a moot point as I would readily admit and concede. I have one brass fitting left in my entire rig that I need to replace with SS because it does indeed contact the wort. Something I didn't know yet when I was acquiring/assembling the parts for my kettle. It's at the top of my priority list after some of my latest reading.
I'm a little stuck on research about what @Trialben said about copper advancing the oxidation process, which is why I avoided response to that till now, and I'm not really calling this a response. Enquiring minds want to know. I've done nothing today but read about this very topic trying to find an opposing view. This reply is just an observation and regurgitation of my research that only confirms prior research done before I made my IC. Even searching "Effects of Copper in Brewing Oxidation". Drew a blank for all of that in a search. I find myself reading the same things from different authors as I'm trying to refute my previous reading that I did for suitable metals for DIY IC's. Sometimes, I'm just trying to figure out who said the same thing I'm reading FIRST and trying to find ANYTHING to contradict some things I've accepted as the norm, if for no other reason than information. I considered soft drawn aluminum (better heat transfer than copper) as an option at one point but finding that is about like finding chicken teeth, and what I did find was way too small and EXTREMELY expensive compared to copper. Go figger. I'm not denying Ben's claim at all, I just haven't found anything to support it yet, but plenty that contradict not using it for any reason, including a book I've added to my brewing library by Brian Kunath, "Brewer's Handbook". Lotsa stuff about not using anything but silver solder for any joint that will be immersed, blah blah blah. Things I already know for different reasons about different processes. I'm primarily using Brian Kunath's book as a reference for keywords and stuff to search for to see if I can find something that disagrees with him about the copper IC and its care/maintenance. There is a lot I've already learned that is NOT in that book. It's probably a bit over simplified, sorta like a "Brewing for Dummies" book. Pretty sure I got the idea for the DIY version in this forum. Ben didn't volunteer a reference for his statement, but I'll bet he has one or more. Something made him make that declaration. I'm still diggin and reading. That's about all I can claim I've done for home brewing today.
Like I said Ben, I'm not refuting your statement, just trying to find something that says the same thing. I like opposing views so I can weigh them for myself. However, if copper is bad, why are so many manufacturers/brewers/DIYers still using it? Yes, stainless is available, but bloody expensive compared to copper coolers which cost way too much for what they are with copper tubing so readily available. The brass/bronze thing is easy enough to accept knowing what metallurgy and chemistry I do know, and I already wanted to avoid them for appearance's sake. But copper has been in use in brewing and distilling FOREVER. Alternately, I've also said myself, just because something's always been a certain way doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed for the right reasons. If your sole goal is no different metals, I respect that too. It's what I would prefer, to a point, until it becomes too cost prohibitive with respect to the quality the rest of my primitive equipment will do. For now, I'm just trying to make sure my homebrew doesn't kill me and I don't produce pig swill, and even hoping the copper ions that the yeastie beasties don't use help my arthritis.
Now I see you're wanting this cooler in a keg that's gonna cool, ferment, and serve your beer. I see why now you don't want copper in there for such a long term, particularly after the yeast is done doing its thing. NO need for yeast nutrients to feed yeast that ain't eatin'. Still haven't found anything about copper being a real problem on an IC, though, as most think of IC's. You're gettin so much stuff stuck in that keg there won't be much room for the beer. That's a bloody big coil on that.
Yeah the copper in the beer can cause Redox reactions which can lead to Beer stailing or speed up oxidation.
You'll find copper In use more side on the hot side before fermentation.
At this stage I can probably kick off some spunded uncontrolled fermentations.
As for the keg I'll treat it like a fermenter and once fermentation is done send it via closed loop system directly into one of them PET 8lt mini kegs where they'll be left to condition and serve.
Like above Roadie I think getting a good seal on that tappered keg I guess you'd call it shoulder will be the next test.
See red marks a bit closer to the lip but this is a crap shoot ATM.
I'm feeling 30 percent confident lol!
I'll need to remove some of that rubber away and have a look how much room I've got.
I'm thinking of just shortening the pickup tube maybe 1 inch or two instead of going a floater just because of the temp twister coil I think a fixed pick-up will save any future snags of a floating pickup.
See how it will be off centre so I think I'll have to bend tge in & out lines ...
Cleaning will be another nightmare now I think of it that krausen likes to get behind the coil.
Cleaning will be another nightmare now I think of it that krausen likes to get behind the coil.
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Good call. I've had a floating dip tube get caught on a suspended keg hopping tube. It sucks
In regards to copper causing oxidation beer or the presence of copper.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1094/ASBCJ-49-0140
This is better
See link below for full study
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3VeC4gB66DyCm2ILItpnRe
I don't know the science that's for sure but I spend a whiles listening to brewing podcasts and reading brewing related topics and I just remember hearing about the presence of copper in beer Being a precursor to oxidation or should I say bluntly it can Speed up the affects if oxidation in your final beer product.
I wanna taste all them malt flavours and smell and taste them lupulin compounds
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1094/ASBCJ-49-0140
This is better
See link below for full study
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3VeC4gB66DyCm2ILItpnRe
I don't know the science that's for sure but I spend a whiles listening to brewing podcasts and reading brewing related topics and I just remember hearing about the presence of copper in beer Being a precursor to oxidation or should I say bluntly it can Speed up the affects if oxidation in your final beer product.
I wanna taste all them malt flavours and smell and taste them lupulin compounds
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Yeah, I was thinking the same, that a floater is gonna stay hung up if that coil is in there. You'll be money ahead to just use a rigid pickup just for that little bit of insurance.
Did we say the same thing about the copper being the problem DURING/AFTER ferment? Do you have a reference for this? I still can't find anything that says anything about copper on the cold side, or that it's detrimental on the hot side.
You could ruin a IC manufacturer's day with this.In regards to copper causing oxidation beer or the presence of copper.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1094/ASBCJ-49-0140
This is better
See link below for full study
View attachment 22746
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3VeC4gB66DyCm2ILItpnRe
I don't know the science that's for sure but I spend a whiles listening to brewing podcasts and reading brewing related topics and I just remember hearing about the presence of copper in beer Being a precursor to oxidation or should I say bluntly it can Speed up the affects if oxidation in your final beer product.
I wanna taste all them malt flavours and smell and taste them lupulin compounds
Not sure what one of them is hey I'm just good at scouring DR Google lol!You could ruin a IC manufacturer's day with this.
Pretty much as per that paper copper isn't that bad on the hot side as they found the yeast actually eat it "metabolise" or take it up in fermentation as a sort of nutrient also copper is reduced during the boil and also drops out in the trub before transferring to fermenter (read that paper lol.
So it's all in the packaging and or storage medium that you want to A minimise the contact of Copper with the beer because of the low amounts what was it 50ppb causing the Stailing/oxidative effect in the beer therefore reducing the shelf life of the beer.
In that study iron concentrations were also detrimental ad well as manganese introduced from the barley more so from wheat.
Anyhow back to things I know more about mucking around with kegs I feel I'm trying to reinvent the wheel here a bit I just hope it'll be worth it.
The kegmenter glycol setup has been great.
Of course, in olden days copper was the material of choice for brewing kettles. I suspect that is more a function of its formability than its chemical properties, although it does have some antibacterial qualities.
Yeah, this is what I've been reading, then, and I'm guessing that most of the authors I've been reading have been assuming the IC would be removed as soon as the wort was cooled and before letting the yeast do its thing. That would control the ionization levels, certainly. Your target appears to be that of not having to remove the chiller from the beer as it ferments, then conditioning in the PET keglets. Gotcha now.
That thing's one heck of a Frankenkegmenter. Dunno what size batches you're doing for your project, but I can see that cooler displacing somewhere between 2 and 4 Liters of liquid from the keg. If you're doing 16L batches, that ain't gonna leave much headspace for the krausen in a 19L keg. Anything less, and a good bit of the chiller won't be submerged. You may be tweaking recipe size for that hardware.
Ain't mechanical stuff fun to do? Looks like you're building a blivet. (10Kg of sh** in a 5 Kg bag). Would the large-mouth torpedo kegs not work better for your project, or are they too large for the batch size you want to do? That would at least give you a little more room for dip tubes and thermowells around that thing. I still like seeing how many holes you can put in one keg head, especially a stainless steel one. Been watching that for a while.
This, I've read as well while I was trying to find a reference to the copper effects on beer. You're right, large kettles were made from copper mostly because it's a very malleable metal, readily available in a lot of locations, and one of the cheapest rare metals that doesn't corrode easily (relatively speaking, of course), and easy to fix the dents when the unmentionable happens. I learned some of this at the Guiness brewery and Jameson Distillery in Dublin. Just general knowledge, which I later dug up more to read on the subjects. What Ben was talking about kinda threw me a curveball at first, and had me wondering why copper hasn't been banished from brewing a long time ago. I see now it's only detrimental on cold side and after fermentation is nearly complete, but extremely low levels can cause big problems. Not something I have to worry about because I chill in the kettle before racking to the fermenter.
I love learning. Thanks for the adventure Ben.
Was sketching out my first comparrison brew but I hit a glitch in fermentation hmmm
There is no way ambient will be around this unless I control the temp bugger.
Maybe I could do it with ginger ninger with saison yeast and just let them ride...
There is no way ambient will be around this unless I control the temp bugger.
Maybe I could do it with ginger ninger with saison yeast and just let them ride...
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Through discussion with the missus (on her last year of Environmental Science degree) she said everything's gotta be the same but change one variables.
Yeah I sorta know this but I guess the difference is fermenting in a kegmenter vs a corney keg right yeah.
So ones quite narrow and tall and the other is wide and fat with more surface area to the wort gas area (kegmenter).
So given brulosophy has found significance in different fermentation vessels i guess my first side by side should be: does fermenting a beer in a kegmenter vs a corney keg display any differences.
Also both vessels will be half full having both 10lt is in both So alot of headspace.
But this is also the conditions I'll conduct my other side by sides in.
So I'm thinking as per above post just brewing a lager grist (helles sorta beer) with my Belgian saison 1 strain and tasting for a difference.
Then I can move on to bigger better comparrisons.
I'm using the word comparrison not experiment remember I'll try my damdest to be scientific but I am just hombrewing.
Caviate ok so take what i do with a grain of salt my main objective here is just to try some side by sides out see what I taste and share what my pallet and bias percieved in the finished beer with a triangle test.
Yeah I sorta know this but I guess the difference is fermenting in a kegmenter vs a corney keg right yeah.
So ones quite narrow and tall and the other is wide and fat with more surface area to the wort gas area (kegmenter).
So given brulosophy has found significance in different fermentation vessels i guess my first side by side should be: does fermenting a beer in a kegmenter vs a corney keg display any differences.
Also both vessels will be half full having both 10lt is in both So alot of headspace.
But this is also the conditions I'll conduct my other side by sides in.
So I'm thinking as per above post just brewing a lager grist (helles sorta beer) with my Belgian saison 1 strain and tasting for a difference.
Then I can move on to bigger better comparrisons.
I'm using the word comparrison not experiment remember I'll try my damdest to be scientific but I am just hombrewing.
Caviate ok so take what i do with a grain of salt my main objective here is just to try some side by sides out see what I taste and share what my pallet and bias percieved in the finished beer with a triangle test.
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There could be some more osmotic pressure in your keg given the geometry and yeast are picky that way. Sort of like how some strains, Du Pont sesion I think it is, doesn't like the back pressure of an air lock so you just open ferment that and it does just fine.
Regarding the well studied Missus' note on making one change at a time, she's spot on there so...how are you dealing with head space in your cube? Are you using a smaller cube?
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Love what you’re doing here. Best of luck.Through discussion with the missus (on her last year of Environmental Science degree) she said everything's gotta be the same but change one variables.
Yeah I sorta know this but I guess the difference is fermenting in a kegmenter vs a corney keg right yeah.
So ones quite narrow and tall and the other is wide and fat with more surface area to the wort gas area (kegmenter).
So given brulosophy has found significance in different fermentation vessels i guess my first side by side should be: does fermenting a beer in a kegmenter vs a corney keg display any differences.
Also both vessels will be half full having both 10lt is in both So alot of headspace.
But this is also the conditions I'll conduct my other side by sides in.
So I'm thinking as per above post just brewing a lager grist (helles sorta beer) with my Belgian saison 1 strain and tasting for a difference.
Then I can move on to bigger better comparrisons.
I'm using the word comparrison not experiment remember I'll try my damdest to be scientific but I am just hombrewing.
Caviate ok so take what i do with a grain of salt my main objective here is just to try some side by sides out see what I taste and share what my pallet and bias percieved in the finished beer with a triangle test.
I think one question that seems to be overhanging all of this is this: are you trying to run experiments for the benefit of all brewers (ala Brulosophy) or are you trying to determine what is and isn’t important in your specific brewery? If the former, than I think you need to be as scientific as possible, one variable at a time, all equipment exactly the same. But if this is about your brewery, then I think you have a bit more latitude. In other words, if your fermenting vessels are typically different depending on whether you chill or no-chill, then that shouldn’t matter, because that is a relevant experiment as it applies to you. The experiment being, does Ben’s processes of chill vs. no-chill produce differences in a Helles? That information is important to you, even if it might not be conclusive to someone with different processes and equipment.
I hope this makes sense.
I think I already said this early in the thread. To determine what effect any variable has, that has to be the ONLY difference to have a controlled experiment.
That's the philosophy I had with my side by side comparisons; which malt made a better beer for Snail House according to my palate?
Some shit was out of my control (fermenting at ambient temps, different FG's using the same yeast) so even if multiple things changed between batches, I just went with it. And I still learned a lot!!
Yeah the later
. Regards above post caviate section
. I think that's a good starting point for me though I wonder if I could taste a difference excited to find out.
@Ward Chillington no Cube mate just stainless steel kegmenter or corney keg.
As for the head space in no chill I don't think it matters if I'm fermenting it the next morning the environment in there is pretty hostile.
Don't like salt in my beer
. And I have high blood pressure.Your missus is a wise one there Ben. Do as she says...
No, seriously, this is really neat. You had the question "does flavor change between chill and no-chill?" and you will soon have an answer.
Of course, if you had infinite money and time, you'd do this for several beer styles, and several batches for each style. But then it'd be a university paper and that sounds like too much work. (That is a big reason nobody's done it).
