Don't understand water chemistry calc

[Suga]

Yeah its fine now, I'm just a literal kind of person. And it bugged me that it's called calculator and didn't function as I expected. Honestly i'll just use beersmith and enter the numbers here and see how things work out. Dealing with water Volumes not matching between the 2 as well.

 

[Yooper]

It’s true that Beersmith and Brewfather do the calculations for you; but it’s also true that many of the profiles are not “real”- that is, you can’t really match the profile properly when it’s simply computer generated additions to hit this imaginary target.

For example, as @Pricelessbrewing mentioned, these calculators will have you adding chalk for some bicarbonate, but yet adding acid to reduce the bicarbonate since the mash pH is too high. So yes, technically, that HCO3 will be correct for certain profile, but then it must be reduced to make the beer taste good. So acid is added to neutralize the bicarbonate...........and when you think about that, you’re not actually hitting the target after all and instead adding things that impact the flavor without making the beer better!

Trust me, when I first started I also wanted the Easy Button. But ask a professional brewer, or a homebrewer who makes great beer if THEY would use that software- and you’ll get a hard no.

Water chemistry is not a particularly difficult thing to learn at our level. Think of it like adding seasonings to your beer. That is all you are doing with these salts. Just like you might like onions and garlic in your spaghetti sauce, you probably will like a little more sulfate in your IPAs and perhaps a little calcium chloride in your lagers. But by hitting a profile, you aren’t necessarily making the best beer by adding things that a software program tells you to. You’ll make better beer by choosing your salts to add, the same way you choose your malts and your hops.

A little bit of understanding of what those ions do, and why you would want to use them (or not) is all that is required to make excellent beer.

 

[Craigerrr]

With Brewfather you can pre-select the "salts" that you add, and when you click the magic wand it will get as close as it can using those salts.
Yooper is on the money though, and I would reiterate that, much like you need to know what different malts bring to the table to develop a recipe, you need to spend some time to learn how to develop a water profile that suits the beer you are making.

 

[Suga]

I simply don't want to do the math.

 

[BOB357]

It's your beer, so your decision.

 

[Yooper]

I simply don't want to do the math.

The calculator does the math. You choose what you want to add, and the calculator does the math!

 

[Nosybear]

I simply don't want to do the math.

I got that impression when I made my unusually snarky comment. As mentioned above, your beer, your decision. The calculator does what it should, no math required on your part. There is an element of trial and error but it gives good results.

 

[Under Deck Brewing]

As someone (like all of us) that went from 'knowing nothing about how brewing water works' to... 'now knowing more than nothing' : I was equally confused as Suga when I first started using the calculator : I didn't know enough about any of this to know what it should, or shouldn't do. I too wanted the 'make magic' button, and was perplexed when 'the calculator' didn't provide it. The one suggestion I'd echo is simply some blurb at the top of that page for new brewers along the lines of (like others have mentioned) : "This is trial and error: In the same way you add your malts & hops to the recipe and let the tool calculate the results, here too you add salts & acids to see the calculated results. Not the results you want? Change the ingredients."
Something like that alone would have really helped me figure all this out faster. Now, I greatly appreciate the calculator, and it feels a bit like a game of Sudoku to get it all dialed in 'right'

 

[Craigerrr]

As someone (like all of us) that went from 'knowing nothing about how brewing water works' to... 'now knowing more than nothing' : I was equally confused as Suga when I first started using the calculator : I didn't know enough about any of this to know what it should, or shouldn't do. I too wanted the 'make magic' button, and was perplexed when 'the calculator' didn't provide it. The one suggestion I'd echo is simply some blurb at the top of that page for new brewers along the lines of (like others have mentioned) : "This is trial and error: In the same way you add your malts & hops to the recipe and let the tool calculate the results, here too you add salts & acids to see the calculated results. Not the results you want? Change the ingredients."
Something like that alone would have really helped me figure all this out faster. Now, I greatly appreciate the calculator, and it feels a bit like a game of Sudoku to get it all dialed in 'right'

I really like your post. Something to explain to the user that the salts are recipe items, just like malts hops and yeast, and that the calculator requires input.
Just like there is no "pale ale" button that magically fills in your grain bill, hops, and yeast!

 

[Yooper]

I really appreciate this discussion- and I’ve put in a ticket to add an explanation to our water calculator, explaining why we don’t have the “easy button”, and that following a profile to add bicarbonate and then add lactic acid to neutralize what was just added so that this imaginary “profile” has been hit is such a fallacy.

Well, not in those words, as that’s a bit strong........but that should be the jist. I love the way @Craigerrr explained that those salts are ingredients just like grain, hops and yeast!

 

[Craigerrr]

I really appreciate this discussion- and I’ve put in a ticket to add an explanation to our water calculator, explaining why we don’t have the “easy button”, and that following a profile to add bicarbonate and then add lactic acid to neutralize what was just added so that this imaginary “profile” has been hit is such a fallacy.

Well, not in those words, as that’s a bit strong........but that should be the jist. I love the way @Craigerrr explained that those salts are ingredients just like grain, hops and yeast!

Thanks @Yooper , after all, you don't have to go to an separate calculator for IBU's, or SRM, or ABV.
Just as there is a certain knowledge required to create a malt bill, or a hop schedule, there is a certain knowledge required to develop the appropriate water profile for whatever you may be brewing. I don't think that anyone's intention is to try and recreate a mythical, or imaginary water profile. The software should be adept at this, user friendly, and intuitive.

 

[Donoroto]

explaining why we don’t have the “easy button”,

Hmm, maybe put an actual Easy Button there, that when clicked goes to the explanation page...
Or is that being too pecksniffian?

 

[Mark Farrall]

Hmm, maybe put an actual Easy Button there, that when clicked goes to the explanation page...
Or is that being too pecksniffian?

I'm assuming you don't want the more widely used, but in this case perfect, description of troll-like?

 

[Donoroto]

I'm assuming you don't want the more widely used, but in this case perfect, description of troll-like?

Yeah, I was looking for the right word there, a bit of dishonesty, some humor, and a touch of wry deception. Troll covers it.

 

[Nosybear]

Yeah, I was looking for the right word there, a bit of dishonesty, some humor, and a touch of wry deception. Troll covers it.

I'd go with snark...

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

@Yooper and I have had many discussions about this, and the short answer is we have not seen an effective automated or self determining feature that determines water adjustments or salts for you. Many of them result in really bad results like adding salts or minerals to raise the pH, then adding acid to lower the pH, then adding more salt to raise a component of the water in order to hit some regional "profile".

The fact of that matter is that most, if not all, of those easy to use systems are simply too simple and don't allow for the flexibility that a calculator like we have, or some others like Bru'n water for example, which allow the user to determine which additions they're using, and how much.

We calculate the output, you put in the input.

It's a possibility that we may at some point meet half way and calculate some of the additions, but there will need to be a lengthy discussion and testing process with the community, Yooper, and I.

I too first wondered, "Why not just tell me how much of what to add?" and then I learned more about water profiles. I get it now. There are many reasons, here are a few:

Not everyone stocks every salt or acid.
Assumptions have to be made about the 'shortest route' to get to the desired targets.
Those assumptions might not match your inventory, or your desired flavor profile.

Water Calcs are more advanced for a reason. (they are complicated) I'd say fiddling with them is akin to the steps made going from Extract Kits to All-Grain. You can buy a PicoBrew and make beer like a Keurig machine makes coffee, or you can take the reins and design your own the way you want. Everyone has their own preferences when they cook something for dinner, even if they first learned it by following someone else's recipe. Think of the Water Calcs as using chemistry to pre-determine the optimum level of seasoning and other additives so everything tastes right and 'comes out right' just like a food dish. (such as, "You ever try to caramelize onions without adding salt? Good luck!")

While I wouldn't discourage BF from adding in educated guesses, I suspect they'll regret doing so eventually, and new brewers will end up relying on those guesses thinking they are 'definitive science' when that would be very far from the truth.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Thank you both, That answers my question. But bring another question. Is it possible to put something close to Ozarks' explanation on the Water Calc page. It would be extremely helpful for Us newer folks. Since i used beersmith prior to this, didn't understand why no salt additions were suggested after entering the start and target.

See my answer below about assumptions, which brings in the point that there is more than one way to get to a target.

Look over the calc, notice that it has the chemical formulas next to each salt. You can get Sulfates with either Gypsum or Epsom Salt. Understanding what each of those does to the beer (and your body! ahem, Epsom Salt) will help guide you as to which to use in what quantities.

You can also get Calcium with both Calcium Chloride and Gypsum. But one will also increase your Chloride, while the other will instead increase your Sulfates. You'd have to decide which you'd rather use that fits your intended flavor profile.

There are also the not so small considerations that some ions need to be at a minimum level for various reasons. (some say 50ppm Calcium for proper hot break and yeast health, I personally prefer at least 80, while a friend recommends 100, and I'm starting to lean that way myself.) Others have a practical maximum. (Magnesium gets to the 'laxative' stage above 30ppm or so. Sulfates get chalky and really obscenely dry finishes at around 300 if not less.) Then there is the concept that ratios of various ions are also important. (they can affect perceptions of bitterness, maltiness, mouthfeel) Combine this with different starting water all the way from RO to the heaviest most ion laden aquifers on the planet, and the permutations of possible salt additions get out of hand really fast.

I'm lucky. My local water is suitable for Amber and darker beers without pH adjustment. (and I prefer darker brews) I use salts for flavor profiles. (our ions save for Sodium are rather low) I start with CaCl to get my Chlorides in line, then move to Gypsum till my Calcium is close, and then very rarely (when making an IPA for instance) if I need high Sulfates do I start dabbling in some Epsom Salt. I never bother with table salt or chalk. (because I'm already high enough for both) If I'm brewing a lighter beer, then I'll start adding acid to lower my pH. (and I use the auto-calc for that) It took me about 10 brews and weeks of studious reading to figure that process out. Now I can pretty much guess based on batch size how much of each salt I'll need to hit a target profile and then only have to fiddle with fractions of grams to dial in. But what I figured out for me, has little chance of working out exactly the same for you.