Decoction thumbs up/down.

[das alte]

Trailben, great topic.

GREAT JOB on the decoction!! If you decide to try it again, split up the 159F temperature. (155 162F, two rest periods, 20 minutes at 155 and 10 minutes at 162)
You will need to convert F to C. I'm too lazy to do it. I hope that you toss a decoction batch in once in a while.

Here's a way to make it a little easier. Instead of trying to figure out how much 30 or 40% of water saturated mash is, crush 30 to 40% of the grain bill into the decoction kettle and the rest of the grain into the mash tun. Dough in the decoction with 1qt/lb cool water, mash temperature around 60F works. Allow the mash to rest for 15 minutes and check the pH. Reduce the mash pH to at least 5.5.

The sample of beer was nice and clear. The white stuff should look like little flecks floating around in the sample. Some are floating around in the sample. Try this with samples, it will help to determine if the beer will need fining. Chill the sample to 32F, the white stuff should sink to the bottom and the liquid above should look like the liquid in your sample, minus the white stuff. If the sample doesn't clear, finings will be needed. When there is a lot of goop in the sample, it is best to allow the wort to settle for a few hours and rack the wort off of the goop before yeast is added.
When mash is boiled protein gum is reduced. Hence, hot break is reduced. The wort is cleaner.
GREAT JOB on producing such clear wort!! Work on the white goop and you'll nail it.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Trailben, great topic.

GREAT JOB on the decoction!! If you decide to try it again, split up the 159F temperature. (155 162F, two rest periods, 20 minutes at 155 and 10 minutes at 162)
You will need to convert F to C. I'm too lazy to do it. I hope that you toss a decoction batch in once in a while.

Here's a way to make it a little easier. Instead of trying to figure out how much 30 or 40% of water saturated mash is, crush 30 to 40% of the grain bill into the decoction kettle and the rest of the grain into the mash tun. Dough in the decoction with 1qt/lb cool water, mash temperature around 60F works. Allow the mash to rest for 15 minutes and check the pH. Reduce the mash pH to at least 5.5.

The sample of beer was nice and clear. The white stuff should look like little flecks floating around in the sample. Some are floating around in the sample. Try this with samples, it will help to determine if the beer will need fining. Chill the sample to 32F, the white stuff should sink to the bottom and the liquid above should look like the liquid in your sample, minus the white stuff. If the sample doesn't clear, finings will be needed. When there is a lot of goop in the sample, it is best to allow the wort to settle for a few hours and rack the wort off of the goop before yeast is added.
When mash is boiled protein gum is reduced. Hence, hot break is reduced. The wort is cleaner.
GREAT JOB on producing such clear wort!! Work on the white goop and you'll nail it.

Ah the white goop will sink to the bottom of the fermentor Anyhow. The beauty about doing biab mash is you have access to all your grain just by drawing up the bag from the mash. My first decoction was pretty thin my second one not so much. I checked the volume before each decoction boil and added back boiling water to make up for boil off losses in these. That mash dropped a few degrees from my step temperature when boiling the decoction so I'm sure my second step went from 71c down to 69 ish c in the 50 min rest I did add a cup back of boiled decoction to try and steady out the drop.

As with all things brewing my next decoction probably on a Pilsner grist next time I'll be more confident in this procedure.

I was surprised with how much decoction volume it took to raise the mash up a few degrees beauty is if it didn't reach the next step I can just hit the flame to get it there. My decoction pot volume is 12lt and I recon I decocted 10lt for each step and this whole volume added back to the mash raised it around 6c.

 

[das alte]

JA.
"Do you contend that any beer brewed with a decoction method must be aged or that beer styles that are traditionally aged for long periods are coincidentally styles that benefit most from decoction....Chicken or egg?"

Yes and yes. The aging cycle of beer has not changed, except in the home made beer hobby. Generally, from boiler to belly in four to six weeks is the home made beer aging cycle.
"1. Brewers grade" malt is desirable for decoction then? 2. In what ways different from other malt? 3. Is the easily available malt we would normally use for infusion or step-mashing not brewers grade malt?...4. not to be used for dabbling in decoction? 5. inferior in any way to this brewer grade?

1. Yes. Brewers grade" malt is desirable for decoction.
2. Brewers grade malt is enzymatically richer and has a higher total sugar content than high modified malt.
3. The high modified, high protein malt that the majority of home brewers use was rejected by the brewing industry.
4. To use high modified malt with the decoction method is a waste of time. The malt is poor.
5. ?....Brewers grade malt is more expensive than high modified malt. It costs more to produce it, the grain is higher quality.

Grades of malt, best to poor. Brewers grade. Malt liquor-distillers grade. Food grade, Farm grade.
This is what happened in the beginning. A marketer involved with establishing the home made beer industry made the statement that modern, high modified malt is great stuff and to make Ale and Lager fit for the Holy Grail all that a person has to do with it is add hot water, stir and wait for an hour or so. Pretty convincing statement. That was all that was needed to get people involved with making home made beer. To make it more convincing, in 1973 a group of advertisers formed an advertising firm called CAMRA and they proceeded to re-define beer to match the product that home brewers would be producing. The same marketers/advertisers placed a negative twist on the decoction method. Their concern isn't over what a person produces or drinks.
There is a sheet of paper that accompanies every sack of grain, a malt data sheet.
The sheet is developed when grain is tested. Malt is tested for a reason; for gaining brewing consistency. Prior to the IOB malt was tested by the brewmaster. When the IOB was established, testing was moved to the malt house and the word "Modern" became attached to malt. Modern was stamped on every bag of grain that was tested by the IOB to distinguish it from the malt in storage down stream of the malt house, which still had to be tested by the brewmaster. The IOB modernized the brewing industry by standardizing test procedures and by establishing a grading system.

Many home brewers are not aware that a data sheet exists. A brewmaster uses it to determine if the malt is worth buying.

 

[das alte]

Thanks for the explanation about the 80F tie in. I was wondering why 80F would be used because the temperature is in the Gram-N bacterium temperature range? The hydrometer and pH meter that I use are calibrated at 60F. I cool the sample as the instructions recommend. But, I got your drift and understand what you meant, and it makes sense.
I agree with you 100% about the quality of the ingredients.
The step mash method works well with higher grade malt than with high modified malt. Take a look at recipes on Weyermann's website.
The malt is richer than high modified malt and when the mash temperature is stepped enzymes are activated during the different temperature rest periods. During the rest period pH is adjusted to be optimum for the activated enzyme.

"Most rests at 145-149 last about 45-60 minutes. This allows the beta amylase enzyme to do its job, then I raise the temperature to 158F for @ 15 minutes. At 158F the alpha enzyme is dominant and the beta is denatured. This will allow the alpha enzyme to covert the remaining starches that the beta couldn't, beta begins to denature @ 150F. I watch the gravity during all these steps with a refractometer and the gravity continues to rise even during mashout at 168F. I rest at 168 for @ 10-15 minutes."

I agree with the extended maltose rest. Don't forget, Alpha is active, too.

Let me help you out with the rest of the statement. The part about enzymes and what they do, anyway.
Alpha has one task. The enzyme liquefies a type of starch inside of the kernel called amylose for the purpose of releasing simple sugar, glucose. Glucose is wrapped up within starch. Nothing converts at this point. Starch is the container that holds sugar. Alpha opens the container. There is a link called a 1-4 link in the amylose starch chain. Alpha liquefies the link, splitting the chain. The piece on the left is called the reducing end, the piece on the right is called the non-reducing end. The reducing end contains 1-4 links and Alpha continues to liquefy them, making more and more ends, until there aren't any more 1-4 links, leaving sweet tasting, non-fermenting sugar in the mixture. The non-reducing end is glucose. Yeast fuel. Alpha's temperature range is wide. From cool earth temperature in the spring, at 98.6F our saliva is loaded with it, all the way up to 168F where it rapidly denatures. Gravity will continue to increase until Alpha denatures or when all of the starch has been liquefied. Iodine test. There are two types of Alpha I and II.
Beta:
Depending on the quality of the malt Beta can be beat to death.
Beta is responsible for conversion. Optimum temperature range is 140 to 145F. Beta converts the glucose that Alpha releases and converts the sugar into complex types of sugar called maltose and malto-triose. Yeast cannot use complex sugar for fuel. During second fermentation another type of conversion occurs. Yeast absorbs maltose and enzymes within yeast converts maltose back into glucose. The sugar is expelled through the cell walls and it becomes fuel. Since, the beer is void of oxygen during second fermentation, yeast strip the oxygen molecules from the sugar.
Amylo-pectin:
Amylo-pectin is located in the tips of the kernel. It is referred to as hard starch and complex starch. The starch is heat resistant and it doesn't begin to enter into solution until 169F is reached in the mash. To heat mash to 169F will denature enzymes.
Amylo-pectin is responsible for body in beer. When the starch is released Alpha turns its attention to it. Alpha releases limit dextrin from the starch. Limit dextrin is tasteless, non-fermenting types of sugar responsible for body. When an infusion method is used the starch ends up in the compost pile. The decoction method utilizes the starch.

 

[das alte]

Trailben.

Its amazing how much volume of decoction mash is needed to increase main mash temperature.
My decoction kettle is 30 gallons, the mash and lautertun are 55 gallons capacity each. I use a five vessel, gas fired system. Grain bill is usually 100 pounds give or take.
Indeed, the protein gunk will settle in the fermenter.
There should be a layer of mud on top of the grain bed in the bag. When the bag is lifted the mud transfers. If a layer of mud does not form on the grain bed it is in the liquid. The wort looked real nice, try not to reduce the quality of it by protein carry over. The issue is easy to correct. Check the PPM Beta Glucan of the malt, it may be high, as well.
The rest at 132F was good. The purpose of a rest at that temperature has to do with what proteinase does with Beta Glucan, more so than what it does with protein.

 

[GFHomebrew]

One other observation was the spent grain was a lot lighter and fluffier than usual not as dence and compact. It made for a nice loaf of bread anyhow. Maybe the boiling process like you said das alts loosened up a lot of the starches. Fermentation kicked off pretty quick i pitched in the eveenningg next morning it was in full swing and smelling nice and hoppy mmm.

 

[J A]

4. To use high modified malt with the decoction method is a waste of time. The malt is poor.

So @Trialben wasted his time since he doesn't mention that he's gone to the trouble of seeking out this better grade of malt and used his accustomed, lower-grade homebrew malt.
If there is no benefit, as many brewers attest and you seem to confirm, in using decoction brewing with "well-modified" malt for home-brewed beer, then we're just practicing the methodology and shouldn't expect a better outcome in terms of quality...until we can gain access to this better malt.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I think many people use the process not just for higher alcohol but also for a better flavor, the process adds a different malty flavor that can reproduced another way not its not exactly the same

 

[J A]

I think many people use the process not just for higher alcohol but also for a better flavor, the process adds a different malty flavor that can reproduced another way not its not exactly the same

But @das alte seems to be saying that the malt that's available for homebrewer's use does not yield the benefits of decoction mashing:

3. The high modified, high protein malt that the majority of home brewers use was rejected by the brewing industry.
4. To use high modified malt with the decoction method is a waste of time. The malt is poor.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Well I'm not sure about the major breweries but I know some of the local craft beer places round the sunny coast use the same homebrew grade malt as me just in higher volumes.

As with all things brewing you have to find what works for you Decoction is just one more my next brew will be a similar grist but step mashed not decocted and I will taste this and compare to decocted brew and I'll base my opinion on this comparison .

 

[Nosybear]

But @das alte seems to be saying that the malt that's available for homebrewer's use does not yield the benefits of decoction mashing:

I'm not sure where he gets his malts but mine come from the same bags as the homebrew shop that has won the most GABF awards of any in Colorado. Decoction is a subject of much debate. I see little benefit to it, I'd place it about tenth in terms of contribution to the overall flavor and quality of the beer. Some swear by it. Some (me) swear at it. Almost every homebrewer will try it at some point so go ahead. If it makes a difference in your beer, real or perceived, it worked.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I'm not sure where he gets his malts but mine come from the same bags as the homebrew shop that has won the most GABF awards of any in Colorado. Decoction is a subject of much debate. I see little benefit to it, I'd place it about tenth in terms of contribution to the overall flavor and quality of the beer. Some swear by it. Some (me) swear at it. Almost every homebrewer will try it at some point so go ahead. If it makes a difference in your beer, real or perceived, it worked.

I'm not sure what home brew grade malt is either, never heard of it. Here the states we can get Rahr Malt, which is awesome, Crisp, Weyermann, Castle, etc. I think we're kind of spoil here.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Ive used Rahr mostly for decades recently Golden Promise which is my go to malt today, both have the expected alcohol and flavor, Im happy using either

 

[KC]

But @das alte seems to be saying that the malt that's available for homebrewer's use does not yield the benefits of decoction mashing:

The statement is a little overgeneralized. You'll still get melanoidins by boiling thick wort from overmodified malts. But if you try to replace an undermodified malt with an overmodified malt in a long multi-step mash schedule, you're mostly wasting time as the conversion work has already been done.

Highly modified malts are used at commercial breweries; maybe not so much the German ones that have been decocting for 200 years and definitely use different malts than those exported from Germany. Undermodified malts are available to homebrewers. They're not really marketed that way so it's hard to tell. The difference is in the spec sheet on the extract efficiency lines and soluble protein. Most maltsters have a general data sheet for each malt, but in reality the values vary batch to batch.

 

[das alte]

Traiben,
"One other observation was the spent grain was a lot lighter and fluffier than usual not as dence and compact."

It will be, instead of throwing starch to the compost pile, it was utilized and protein gum was reduced when the decoctions were boiled. You noticed less hot break, the occurrence is inherent in the decoction method. It is interesting, two brewers that found no benefit for using the method didn't seem to mention anything that occurred. I believe that a brewer mentioned that he used the method 8 to 10 times and experienced nothing different? I believe that he was the brewer that explained the way that Alpha and Beta work. If the explanation came from a book, the book gotta go.
How many times have you attempted decoction brewing? Perhaps, this was the first time and you noticed something different. It seems odd that the other brewers didn't mention anything.

There are two groups of people that say the same thing about the method. The first group are brewers that learned how to use the method from books about making home brew beer or from the internet who dive in head first and expect miracles to happen in a handful of batches.
The other group are shills, salesman, that lace websites because they have a captive audience who believe anything they say. Winning medals. Of course, why not? It is good for advertising.

Try to clean up the protein a little bit and you'll nail it down, you have a good start. I want you to succeed and I will help you if you are interested. It takes time.
Next time, raise the first decoction temperature 122F for 20 minutes. That is enough. Raise the mash to 155F for 20 minutes, test for starch. If starch is present wait another 10 minutes and begin to boil it. Skim off gunk as it rises. To produce melanoidin, mash has to boil for at least one hour. Maillard Reaction will not darken the wort. If Maillard occurred, the sample would have been rich golden/yellow in appearance, crystal clear. Use the decoction to go to the 132F rest. The rest is partially responsible for the difference in the spent grain. Proteinase shifts gears and turns its attention to Beta Glucan. Proteinase releases glucose from Beta Glucan. When the action occurs Beta Glucan is reduced and mash viscosity reduces, as well. During the maltose rest, the extra glucose will end up converted into maltose. Alpha will release glucose during the maltose rest. Beta, being at optimum temp, 140 to 145F, easily handles the glucose released by Alpha because Alpha isn't working real fast. The extra glucose comes in handy.
A major mistake happens when a brewer rests the entire volume of mash for 20 minutes at 122F. It is way too much when high protein malt is used. The beer thins out. Weyermann floor malt is low protein malt. Email in the number on a sack and they will tell you the name of the farmer that grew the barley. When I order grain for the season, I order Weyermann light and dark floor and Pioneer Pils floor. When the grain arrives, the use by date on the bags can be several months apart. The warehouse filters in some of the older malt. Generally, Marris Otter is low protein malt, a unique feature of the malt, it has a lot of sugar in it. To make the malt more suitable for brewing beer, enzymes should be added. I used Crisp Europils a few times and it was tough to get use to. The beer from the malt was the style and color of Harp, crystal clear and naturally carbed in six months. I killed myself with the malt, it jells more than German malt, making the mash difficult to work with. Always refer to the malt data sheet, malt isn't consistently, consistent. If a generic one is available that covers the entire type of malt, email the malt house and ask for the one for the malt you may want to buy.

KC
What is decoction dunk sparge? It sounds interesting, especially when melanoidin is tied in with the process. I put a lot of work into the first decoction for Maillard Reaction to occur and if a dunk sparge decoction method works, I'm good to go with it.

JA, I'll get to your questions, bear with me.

 

[KC]

What is decoction dunk sparge? It sounds interesting, especially when melanoidin is tied in with the process. I put a lot of work into the first decoction for Maillard Reaction to occur and if a dunk sparge decoction method works, I'm good to go with it.

In BIAB I'll remove the bag at the end of the mash, put it in another pot, top it off with sparge water and boil it. Theoretically less effective than thick mash because there are fewer sugars, but there are still some left on the grains to get reactions, and it uses the whole grain bill instead of 30-40%. The second pot lets me do that in parallel with the main boil so the decoction can go pretty long without adding brew day length.

I've never tried both methods with the same recipe to compare results

 

[GFHomebrew]

In BIAB I'll remove the bag at the end of the mash, put it in another pot, top it off with sparge water and boil it. Theoretically less effective than thick mash because there are fewer sugars, but there are still some left on the grains to get reactions, and it uses the whole grain bill instead of 30-40%. The second pot lets me do that in parallel with the main boil so the decoction can go pretty long without adding brew day length.

I've never tried both methods with the same recipe to compare results

Thats worth a shot there KC heating up the mash to boiling will sure strip away any sugars left in the grain.

 

[J A]

Theoretically less effective than thick mash because there are fewer sugars, but there are still some left on the grains to get reactions, and it uses the whole grain bill instead of 30-40%.

If you're just boiling spent grain, I see tannin extraction as a problem. There's a reason we don't use boiling water for the sparge.
And boiling the malt after enzymatic action is done completely misses out on some of the reactions between enzymes in the main mash and more complex compounds released during starch gelatinization.

 

[KC]

There's a reason we don't use boiling water for the sparge

I haven't taken a pH reading but the decoction is much thicker than a batch sparge. When I said 'top off' I meant to the level of the grain bed and not the kettle. Sparging with sauergut can also keep pH low and avoid tannins.

 

[wobdee]

Das alte,
how do you keep your O2 low during your decoctions? Me thinks many people don't see much difference in decoction because of all the splashing from transferring between kettles leads to more O2 exposure which kills that maltiness.

What's your take on recirculation brewing like herms or rims? I wonder if that constant circulation through the mash strains out those proteins similar to how a decoction does? I don't get that gray/brown mud like I did with decoction but I sure get nice clear wort with a good step mash in my Spedel Braumeister.