Decline in Hombrewing.

[Mont Y. Märzen]

where do you live? most of the world is wired for 240.

ya 98% of outlets are 110VAC 15 A in USA. so there is little use to making anything higher wattage. but SSRs are 50-240VAC and can be had well over 15A. the ones I use are 40A

I wired my own house. I have room for 240V and plans to add it for a few things, maybe, but I run heavy appliances on Natural Gas, so I haven't needed it yet. (nearly 20 years since I re-wired) My lighting circuits are 15A, but all of my outlets are 20A save for the bedrooms which were required to have Arc-Fault breakers and they didn't make 20A versions at the time. (or at least I couldn't find them)

Good to know about the relay range. It may just be then that I can buy something off the shelf and re-wire it as needed for a 20A plug. I'll have to investigate that more.

 

[Minbari]

I wired my own house. I have room for 240V and plans to add it for a few things, maybe, but I run heavy appliances on Natural Gas, so I haven't needed it yet. (nearly 20 years since I re-wired) My lighting circuits are 15A, but all of my outlets are 20A save for the bedrooms which were required to have Arc-Fault breakers and they didn't make 20A versions at the time. (or at least I couldn't find them)

Good to know about the relay range. It may just be then that I can buy something off the shelf and re-wire it as needed for a 20A plug. I'll have to investigate that more.

or just use sockets that will support the current you want to use. an RV cable will transport the current you need from wherever the 240VAC source, you have, is. as mentioned, I use the dryer port in my house, 40 ft away. requires a 6ga 3 conductor cable. if you can use 240VAC I would seriously consider it. makes high wattage alot easier.

15A @ 110VAC is 1650W
30A @ 220VAC is 6600 watts. (4x)

feel free to look through my bent nail brewery thread for ideas

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Come November I will brewing regularly. I guess I could brew here, but I would have nowhere for a fermenter. I mean I have a shed, but temperature would be all over the place. Way too much gear to cart back and forth...
Good thoughts though, thanks!

As discussed in another thread, consider a water bath for your fermenter. Masses don't like to change temp. With your fermenter in a water bath initially (ideally) at the desired fermentation temp, or in the middle of the happy range for the yeast, the beer won't want to rise or fall as it is more than the metabolic heat generated by the yeast (or the drop when they conk out drunk) so the water bath will then assist to stabilize the surrounding temp as *it* doesn't want to change temp readily either. This will greatly reduce fluctuations of the batch itself. (short of sudden freezes or heat waves — I'm not talking about abandoning a fermenter entirely for months)

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Absolutely the work involved is a contributing factor...OF which there's gotta be many factors in this or any other decline in an interest or hobby. Hell, look at home gardening, canning or the perfect example in the pandemic driven rise in baking sourdough bread! You can get yeast at the grocery store now and the marketing people at King Arthur and Gold Medal are probably lamenting the decline in the demand for baking flour!
An appreciation for the rewards from hard work comes more with age and experience ....and not that a younger person doesn't understand the rewards of hard work but they may not have the time opportunity presented to their free time yet...and of course some folks just don't like hard work for something they can just pick up in the store. I think as more freedoms come to other world markets, the pendulum will swing the other way....we will just have to use Google Translate a lot more!

Funny you mention gardening. I got into it 20 years ago and tried to go 'full farmer'. That was a classic mistake. I picked it up again a few years ago and this time - one 4x4ft box at a time. This is how I approached homebrew too. Crawl first, learn the process, learn the ingredients (no 'kitchen sink' brews!) learn the equipment, then and only then, start upgrading, stepping up batch sizes, more complicated recipes, etc. Same for gardening, though I take an experimental approach now. (I do similar for homebrew some times) I'll pick a new crop like lettuce, and grow 10 varieties or more in a season. Decide which ones I like and which ones were easier to deal with, and let those go to seed for next year. To me that's still keeping to one crop, just not waiting 10 years to find out which one I like. I do the same with split batches to trial yeast and hops.

In both brewing and gardening I don't 'bite off more than I can swallow or chew' but I do eat everything I grow and drink everything I brew.

I can easily supply my own beer needs and then some. I'm still working on getting my garden that productive, but it is well on the way...

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

or just use sockets that will support the current you want to use. an RV cable will transport the current you need from wherever the 240VAC source, you have, is. as mentioned, I use the dryer port in my house, 40 ft away. requires a 6ga 3 conductor cable. if you can use 240VAC I would seriously consider it. makes high wattage alot easier.

15A @ 110VAC is 1650W
30A @ 220VAC is 6600 watts. (4x)

feel free to look through my bent nail brewery thread for ideas

Maybe there's a misunderstanding: there are no 240V breakers in my system currently. I would have to add one, as well as the 10ga+cabling run to whatever outlet I wanted for brewing. (my dryer is gas) The expense to run it even myself in materials alone is almost, or is, the cost of installing the element and the controller hardware. That's $1000+. That 20A element upgrade will run me about $150+whatever I can devise for a controller using existing 20A circuits. *IF* I go that route, it will be for occasional indoor brewing of 2.5–3gal batches only when it is raining. (so I can reach a boil easily) Otherwise, I'm brewing on propane outside.

I will check out your brewery thread though, thanks!

 

[GFHomebrew]

basic controller is pretty easy. inkbird style temp controller and as many SSR as you need to control the heating elements. 2k-3k watts will boil 5 gallons pretty easy. I use my 240VAC dryer socket to power mine.

Sounds like my ramshackle brew controller.

The probe type is key too for getting good temperature readings


I don't blame you @Mont Y. Märzen for sticking with propane .

im lucky in Aus all outlets are 240v 10Amp.

my element is 3300Watt so need 15 amp outlet but through talking to an electrician who wired my old 15amp socket for me he said mate all the wires in your house are good for 20amps.

So I just plug my controller straight into a 10amp socket now using a 10amp male plug and no fires so far

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

or just use sockets that will support the current you want to use. an RV cable will transport the current you need from wherever the 240VAC source, you have, is. as mentioned, I use the dryer port in my house, 40 ft away. requires a 6ga 3 conductor cable. if you can use 240VAC I would seriously consider it. makes high wattage alot easier.

15A @ 110VAC is 1650W
30A @ 220VAC is 6600 watts. (4x)

feel free to look through my bent nail brewery thread for ideas

Please tell me you're running the 4 relays from 4 separate circuits...

Nevermind, I see your diagram now...

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Sounds like my ramshackle brew controller.

The probe type is key too for getting good temperature readings

And location. My friends with pre-built electric systems have found an issue where some have the probe right above the element, which causes it to cycle off too soon and thus doesn't get to the desired mash temp as presumed. In such a system, which all use recirculating mashes, the solution is to move the probe to just outside the kettle to temp the flow, and then spot check with a handheld in the mass of the mash itself.

 

[Minbari]

Sounds like my ramshackle brew controller.

The probe type is key too for getting good temperature readings

ill be honest. I have tried thermocouples, ds18b20 digital, 3 wire RTD. the cheapest ones have worked the best, lol. plain ol thermal resistor.

 

[Minbari]

Please tell me you're running the 4 relays from 4 separate circuits...

no need. they power 4 1500 watt elements, 3 of which can be on at once(sw controlled).....well under the 50amp socket they are plugged into.

 

[GFHomebrew]

And location. My friends with pre-built electric systems have found an issue where some have the probe right above the element, which causes it to cycle off too soon and thus doesn't get to the desired mash temp as presumed. In such a system, which all use recirculating mashes, the solution is to move the probe to just outside the kettle to temp the flow, and then spot check with a handheld in the mass of the mash itself.

Mine set next to the pump puckup in the kettle or pump outlet at bottom.

I've found a 2c different when recirculating in the top of the mash.

I've got a couple of stc measuring temps and such on my glycol chamber so I just hang a probe directly in side the mash to take a realistic reading (hopefully it's calibrated right lol) then I adjust the controller temp to match the actuall mash temp.

Eg controller set at 61c stc probe on mash =59c so I set controller to 63c and this brings the mash Into ling.

Another not is I've settle on a 15 minute wait until I make adjustments though as the mash takes time to come to a settled temperature on the recirc.

 

[Minbari]

Mine set next to the pump puckup in the kettle or pump outlet at bottom.

I've found a 2c different when recirculating in the top of the mash.

I've got a couple of stc measuring temps and such on my glycol chamber so I just hang a probe directly in side the mash to take a realistic reading (hopefully it's calibrated right lol) then I adjust the controller temp to match the actuall mash temp.

Eg controller set at 61c stc probe on mash =59c so I set controller to 63c and this brings the mash Into ling.

Another not is I've settle on a 15 minute wait until I make adjustments though as the mash takes time to come to a settled temperature on the recirc.

I have a temp probe in the mash at about mid way and a probe in the recirc path. I use a weighted avg of the two for the controller to make decisions on adding heat. works fairly well most of the time. gets with in 3-4°F once it reaches temp.

 

[RoadRoach]

Yeah, my issue is I'm not wired for anything 240V, and that would be another huge expense. (even doing it myself - materials are through the roof right now) I found a high wattage 120V/20A element from BrewHardware that I'm interested in. But that's the rub. It can burn ≈2150 watts but everything controller related that I find is limited to 15A@1500W. (without stepping up to 240V/30A) So I'm going to have to completely build this myself. Which is fine, because I also want to design software to run it through a Pi.

Are you wanting to use PWM heating, or bang bang (on/off) heating? If on/off, just use some interposing relays to isolate the higher current requirements from the controller. You should be able to get an SSR good for 20A or so, too. If you use a contactor style relay, I’ve seen a little 24VDC relay switching several hundred amperes. It just needs big contacts.

I worked in industrial services for 40 years. There’s stuff out there to do whatever you want for control. All it takes is money.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Are you wanting to use PWM heating, or bang bang (on/off) heating? If on/off, just use some interposing relays to isolate the higher current requirements from the controller. You should be able to get an SSR good for 20A or so, too. If you use a contactor style relay, I’ve seen a little 24VDC relay switching several hundred amperes. It just needs big contacts.

I worked in industrial services for 40 years. There’s stuff out there to do whatever you want for control. All it takes is money.

Thanks for the tips! I'll definitely look into it. I was leaning to PWM, but I'm not sold on any path yet and haven't started buying parts. I'm probably about a year out on this project due to others that have to come off the back burner first so I have time for thorough research.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Thanks for the tips! I'll definitely look into it. I was leaning to PWM, but I'm not sold on any path yet and haven't started buying parts. I'm probably about a year out on this project due to others that have to come off the back burner first so I have time for thorough research.

I've been down the PWM path personally trying to Emulate a PID style controller using an stc1000 to switch on and off.
I'd dial back the element to reduce swings when trying to hit my target mash temps.

Man this actually used to work really well and could hit the temperature within 2c easily by dialing back to wattage to 30% power.

It also worked great for them slow ramp up mash steps you were talking about which mind you I can't do with my base level Inkbird pid controller.

I wish I could use my 4000watt rated PWM but I already killed one trying to tamper my 3300watt element yeah it's more rated to 2400watt I've found lol

I think the more fancy pids though let you adjust the element power percentage which I'd love to upgrade to in the future.

Hey thanks again for the discussion

 

[GFHomebrew]

More on topic I'm still seeing a fair few breweries here in Australia bowing out seems we've not reached the bottom of the curve Yet!

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

northern brewer was bought by ZX ventures, a holdings company of AB-inbev in 2016. they recently sold it to blackstreet.

And then they closed their retail locations! Damn bean counters !

 

[Donoroto]

Thanks for the tips! I'll definitely look into it. I was leaning to PWM, but I'm not sold on any path yet and haven't started buying parts. I'm probably about a year out on this project due to others that have to come off the back burner first so I have time for thorough research.

For what it's worth: If you can recirculate the mash liquid, bang-bang works fine. If recirculation is difficult, PWM can offer better (well, easier) temperature control.

 

[RoadRoach]

For what it's worth: If you can recirculate the mash liquid, bang-bang works fine. If recirculation is difficult, PWM can offer better (well, easier) temperature control.

That’s what I’ve been doing since I got the pump. Just keep the wort moving, it’ll balance the temperature nicely.

 

[NorthCoastBrewer]

And then they closed their retail locations!

Are you aware of Beer Meister (west of Plymouth on MN 55)? Also check out the Nordeast Brewers Alliance's web site for an event this Sunday (Oct 22) (weather forecast is looking nice). I haven't been there (yet), but I'm hearing good things from a couple of people who have been there.

And while they are outside of my definition of "local", they also have a web site -- having another regional on-line option for supplies can be a good thing. If you don't like what you see today, consider checking back in 3, 6, and/or 12 months.