Commercial level Cleaning Chemicals

[toffle]

For years I have been using the basic combination of PBW and StarSan (or Steri San) for cleaning and sanitizing in our small restaurant/nano brewery. On the advice of a somewhat larger commercial brewer, our owners have brought in a suite of chemicals to make our process more thorough. These chemicals are:

AC HOT - a blend of inorganic acids, designed for CIP applications for dairy and food processing plants, specifically for removing scale, milkstone and stains.

HDAC 502 - a cheleated caustic cleaner for carbonated beverages and dairy.

CAC SUPER - a phosphate-free silicate-free chlorinated alkaline detergent.

RiiVAL - (PAA SANITIZER) (Star San on steroids?)

Does anyone have any experience with the above chemicals, especially in regard to the order of application of the cleaners/detergents. Does this seem like overkill to you? The health and safety datasheets for these chemicals sound a bit daunting. (to the point of making me think I should be wearing a hazmat suit in the brewery)

To be clear, yes I can read instructions, but the sheets do assume a basic understanding of commercial cleaning processes, and don't give any indication of the conditions under which to apply each solution.

Any input would be appreciated.

Tom

 

[Bigbre04]

1 dump the sludge out of the bottom port of the tank(depending on tank size you may need to blow compressed air to get rid of CO2).
2 setup your cip
3 pull hot liquor to preheat and rinse your tank(you want your temp probe to read 140f+
4 fill in your water quantity and then add your caustic to the vessel(i generally shoot for the middle of the ratio range and adjust if i need to)(always add chemical to water not the opposite way around)
5 Spin Caustic for 30 mins(be sure that everything sees atleast 15 mins of flow time)
6 flashlight inspect for dirt
7 dump chemical and rinse with hot liquor
8 cool tank with street water
9 mix in your acid cleaner to your water
10 spin for 30 mins
11 rinse with street water
12 fill in your water and add your PAA
13 spin for 15 mins then put the tank back together spin sealed up tank for 15 mins
14 put your product line in place and push the sani out through it using CO2. fill up your blow off bucket with sani and seal up the tank.

this is a basic outline. remember that your tank MUST be vented while it is hot. if it is not vented when you cool it down it will implode.

caustic is slippery on your skin similarly to pbw.

PAA turns your skin white when it gets on it.

be sure to have an eye wash station, wear chemical resistant gloves(google black knights), safety glasses, and proper footwear. print out SDS sheets and keep them on hand for reference.

CO2 will nuetralize your caustic and the reaction can be pretty aggressive.

acid and caustic DO NOT MIX.

not sure what the alkaline cleaner is for? i use Caustic, nitric phos, and PAA

 

[Donoroto]

“Add acid* to water, just like you oughter”. Corny but it works. *(not just acid, but anything dangerous.)

Safety glasses: not machinists style, but “chemical splash goggles”.

And, ya know, a tyvek suit is not a bad idea. They are inexpensive.

 

[Bigbre04]

“Add acid* to water, just like you oughter”. Corny but it works. *(not just acid, but anything dangerous.)

Safety glasses: not machinists style, but “chemical splash goggles”.
View attachment 30760

And, ya know, a tyvek suit is not a bad idea. They are inexpensive.

Tyvek is a bit overkill, but wearing cotton/non-synthetic clothing is important. Nitric/phos will instantly eat through athletic clothes.

most big breweries require some sort of eye protection while on the floor. I actually like the ones that go over glasses even though i dont wear glasses. they dont fog as badly and are well protected.

 

[Donoroto]

Tyvek is a bit overkill, but wearing cotton/non-synthetic clothing is important. Nitric/phos will instantly eat through athletic clothes.

My goal is to keep it off my clothes entirely.

 

[Donoroto]

They last a while and can be found cheaper than this.

 

[Bigbre04]

Proper measuring cups are also very clutch. I prefer tall skinny measuring cups(im blanking on the name instead of larger beaker style). Graduated cylinders? Made of Poly. Depending on how big it is you may want a handle on the side of them. they last forever even if they are a little pricey.

the white plastic pumps the big ball handle are the best by far. pricey but they last a long time and wont fuck up. ill send a pic in a min brewing right now

 

[Bigbre04]

Pictures

 

[toffle]

Thanks for the responses so far.
The chemicals came with the ball pump dispensers - I tried one out with a bucket of water, and it seems to splash quite a bit. That prompted me to retreat into "research mode". We're a seasonal restaurant, and currently in hiatus, so I have time to figure out the correct procedures.

I don't wear "good" clothes in the brewery, but I suspect with this cleaning protocol, I may have to assign a selection of my wardrobe to "brewery only" clothing. Maybe some protective coveralls would be a good idea.

Thanks so much all!
Tom

 

[toffle]

1 dump the sludge out of the bottom port of the tank(depending on tank size you may need to blow compressed air to get rid of CO2).
2 setup your cip
3 pull hot liquor to preheat and rinse your tank(you want your temp probe to read 140f+
4 fill in your water quantity and then add your caustic to the vessel(i generally shoot for the middle of the ratio range and adjust if i need to)(always add chemical to water not the opposite way around)
5 Spin Caustic for 30 mins(be sure that everything sees atleast 15 mins of flow time)
6 flashlight inspect for dirt
7 dump chemical and rinse with hot liquor
8 cool tank with street water
9 mix in your acid cleaner to your water
10 spin for 30 mins
11 rinse with street water
12 fill in your water and add your PAA
13 spin for 15 mins then put the tank back together spin sealed up tank for 15 mins
14 put your product line in place and push the sani out through it using CO2. fill up your blow off bucket with sani and seal up the tank.

this is a basic outline. remember that your tank MUST be vented while it is hot. if it is not vented when you cool it down it will implode.

caustic is slippery on your skin similarly to pbw.

PAA turns your skin white when it gets on it.

be sure to have an eye wash station, wear chemical resistant gloves(google black knights), safety glasses, and proper footwear. print out SDS sheets and keep them on hand for reference.

CO2 will nuetralize your caustic and the reaction can be pretty aggressive.

acid and caustic DO NOT MIX.

not sure what the alkaline cleaner is for? i use Caustic, nitric phos, and PAA

This is very well presented. Thank you.
By "spin" do you mean running CIP ball?

 

[Bigbre04]

This is very well presented. Thank you.
By "spin" do you mean running CIP ball?

Yup running the cip.

 

[Bigbre04]

I wear jeans or work pants and a plain t shirt(wrangler ones from Walmart are decent or I buy cheap hanes beefy ts on Amazon or in stores) you will fuck them up eventually, but they are cheap and look decent.

I wear rubber boots but leather work boots would be fine. Steel/safety toe is a good idea if you are handling kegs.

The white pumps like I posted a picture of are the best. If they are splashing you are pumping too hard.

Get a deep graduated cylinder.

!!!!Pay complete attention to what you are doing when you ate touching those chemicals. They will hurt you if you get lazy.!!!

 

[Bigbre04]

hit me up im running a nano/brewpub setup. i will help where i can. where is your spot?

 

[toffle]

hit me up im running a nano/brewpub setup. i will help where i can. where is your spot?

Thanks so much!
We are a small restaurant/brew pub near Point Pelee National Park in Leamington, Ontario. I believe we lay claim to being the most southerly brewery in Canada.

I've got a call into our supplier, to guide me through our first run through. I will reach out if I have further questions.
(for example, this: can the same regimen be used in cleaning kegs? It's my most hated task in the brewery!)

 

[McMullan]

When your employer buys in a load of chemicals, they need to ensure all staff who come into contact with said chemicals are fully trained. End fn of. Some people, including dodgy craft brewers, winging it, can't offer you any valuable advice unless they confirm what I just typed. Seriously, you don't go online to ask these questions. You'll become a risk to yourself and your customers. Some will want to call this 'bureaucracy'. Sometimes at any cost.

 

[toffle]

When your employer buys in a load of chemicals, they need to ensure all staff who come into contact with said chemicals are fully trained. End fn of. Some people, including dodgy craft brewers, winging it, can't offer you any valuable advice unless they confirm what I just typed. Seriously, you don't go online to ask these questions. You'll become a risk to yourself and your customers. Some will want to call this 'bureaucracy'. Sometimes at any cost.

Thank you for your input.
It's a little difficult to sift the meaning of some of your sentence fragments, but I catch your drift. I don't believe I or any of the responders were suggesting anything other than the utmost of caution. As I said, I am fully capable of reading the Safety Data Sheets. What I was looking for was an outline of how the workflow might differ from my previous process. As I have also said, I have scheduled a talk with our supplier to go over the cautions and procedures.
I hope this satisfies your concerns. I see nothing improper about posting this discussion online, in a community of dedicated brewers. I'm not sure the responders to this post would appreciate being called dodgy.
Thanks again.

 

[Bigbre04]

When your employer buys in a load of chemicals, they need to ensure all staff who come into contact with said chemicals are fully trained. End fn of. Some people, including dodgy craft brewers, winging it, can't offer you any valuable advice unless they confirm what I just typed. Seriously, you don't go online to ask these questions. You'll become a risk to yourself and your customers. Some will want to call this 'bureaucracy'. Sometimes at any cost.

While I do consider myself a dodgy craft brewer lol. I do have a degree in this stuff and 15 years of professional experience, i have trained a lot of brewers in my previous life. My outline is very bare bones, but it is the basics of the question. obviously without being there guiding hands on i can only lay out guidelines though.

These are serious chemicals as has been stated. Knowledge, focus, and forethought are needed, fear is not. They are not Sarin gas or ebola or some sort of space monster. These are standard industrial chemicals.

When i have chemicals in my hands i am not having a conversation and i am very conscious of how and where i am walking. If you have been brewing for long enough you know that you walk very consciously when you are dealing with slippery, wet, hose-laden floors. You only eat shit a few times before you learn very quickly where to place your feet and how to walk carefully.

Plus, at least they bought liquid caustic instead of the horrible powdered shit! So that is a net positive!

On a real-life note, walking through a CIP with your larger Commercial brother or having one of them come and walk you through it would be a good idea. Also dont assume that the sales guy knows his ass from his elbow, a brewer or one of their higher level support folks would be a better resource.

Thanks so much!
We are a small restaurant/brew pub near Point Pelee National Park in Leamington, Ontario. I believe we lay claim to being the most southerly brewery in Canada.

I've got a call into our supplier, to guide me through our first run through. I will reach out if I have further questions.
(for example, this: can the same regimen be used in cleaning kegs? It's my most hated task in the brewery!)

a normal automated keg washer cycle goes:
1 air push to dump beer/sludge
2 street water rinse
3 air
4 hot caustic(or acid, its a good idea to change it up ever couple months depending on how quick you cycle your kegs)
5 air
6 water rinse
7 air
8 sani rinse(usually dosed inline to your street water)
9 CO2 to push the sani out
10 CO2 fill/pressurize

most of these steps are atleast 30 seconds long(for water/caustic/sani) pushes can be shorter(you can hear it when the keg empties), i think the last washer that i used is about a 2-3 mins cycle.

For a manual washer i would have a tank of cleaner(whatever the flavor of the day is), tank of sani, CO2, Compressed air, street water, and 2 or 3 pumps. overall not terribly hard to build if you have some basic plumbing skills. It can be a long mind numbing day but its part of the job.

I just take my kegs to my previous brewery and wash them there(still got the keys and occasionally step in for an emergency brewday if needed), takes less then an hour on the fancy keg washer.

 

[McMullan]

While I do consider myself a dodgy craft brewer lol. I do have a degree in this stuff and 15 years of professional experience, i have trained a lot of brewers in my previous life. My outline is very bare bones, but it is the basics of the question. obviously without being there guiding hands on i can only lay out guidelines though.

These are serious chemicals as has been stated. Knowledge, focus, and forethought are needed, fear is not. They are not Sarin gas or ebola or some sort of space monster. These are standard industrial chemicals.

When i have chemicals in my hands i am not having a conversation and i am very conscious of how and where i am walking. If you have been brewing for long enough you know that you walk very consciously when you are dealing with slippery, wet, hose-laden floors. You only eat shit a few times before you learn very quickly where to place your feet and how to walk carefully.

Plus, at least they bought liquid caustic instead of the horrible powdered shit! So that is a net positive!

On a real-life note, walking through a CIP with your larger Commercial brother or having one of them come and walk you through it would be a good idea. Also dont assume that the sales guy knows his ass from his elbow, a brewer or one of their higher level support folks would be a better resource.


a normal automated keg washer cycle goes:
1 air push to dump beer/sludge
2 street water rinse
3 air
4 hot caustic(or acid, its a good idea to change it up ever couple months depending on how quick you cycle your kegs)
5 air
6 water rinse
7 air
8 sani rinse(usually dosed inline to your street water)
9 CO2 to push the sani out
10 CO2 fill/pressurize

most of these steps are atleast 30 seconds long(for water/caustic/sani) pushes can be shorter(you can hear it when the keg empties), i think the last washer that i used is about a 2-3 mins cycle.

For a manual washer i would have a tank of cleaner(whatever the flavor of the day is), tank of sani, CO2, Compressed air, street water, and 2 or 3 pumps. overall not terribly hard to build if you have some basic plumbing skills. It can be a long mind numbing day but its part of the job.

I just take my kegs to my previous brewery and wash them there(still got the keys and occasionally step in for an emergency brewday if needed), takes less then an hour on the fancy keg washer.

I'm sure your advice would be good, but you are still a random bloke online, which isn't sufficient to comply with standard regulations. At least in Europe.

 

[Bigbre04]

I'm sure your advice would be good, but you are still a random bloke online, which isn't sufficient to comply with standard regulations. At least in Europe.

100% agree with you. My advice is really to get someone to hands on show you or to learn on the job.

You have no idea how many times i see small/new breweries do exactly what he is describing though. Something is better then him winging it on his own. There is a vast difference between homebrew CIP(PBW/Starsan) and Commercial. Not to say that those chemicals are bad, just saying that they are far less effective especially as you scale up. The starsan foam also sketches me out when you use it in a brite(O2 ingress mainly).

Craft breweries of all sizes in the states are shockingly unregulated it is honestly kind of crazy.

In Europe do you have to be certified to use these chems?

 

[Bigbre04]

This is how I setup my cip. I'm spinning through the heat ex.