Chill Haze

[Ward Chillington]

So I have been reading about how to clear chill haze and I was wondering what that collective wisdom is on these 2 areas; Protein Rests and a vigorous boil?

Most of my pale brews that I have made since going to a larger kettle have exhibited a chill haze. It doesn't affect the flavor but I'd really like to help out my presentation. I do not want to fine with anything beyond the Irish Moss I use and I think I can work on my cold break cycle with a bigger IC coil but I am curious what you all think about changing my mashing method and if changing the boil method or time is effective.

I have done step mashing with J A 's stout recipe with good success and I THINK I have done vigorous boils and extended boils of an hour and 15 or 30 but what really constitutes vigorous and long? Is my Turkey Fryer gas cooker enough to get me to "vigorous" given a 7-ish gallon starting volume? It bubbles and boils pretty well IMHO. Is "extended" anything beyond an hour or does it start at and hour and half??

 

[J A]

Is my Turkey Fryer gas cooker enough to get me to "vigorous" given a 7-ish gallon starting volume? It bubbles and boils pretty well IMHO. Is "extended" anything beyond an hour or does it start at and hour and half??

A decent gas burner should get you a vigorous boil in a 7 gallon pot. What's your boil off rate? I would count on around 6 quarts per hour gallons when i used a pot that size. When I used that size pot, my extended boil was a way to get more volume. I'd finish the sparge and boil for a half hour while the bag drained and add the last half gallon or so of "squeezin's" at the one hour mark and get to my numbers. I've always preferred a boil with a lot of movement - definitely a rolling boil.
If you're doing a protein rest (some say it's not necessary with modern "over-modified" malts) and doing a vigorous boil, extending beyond and extra 15 minutes isn't going to make much difference. Even just a hour boil should get you where you need.
If it's starch haze, you could try gelatin finings in the keg or secondary. If Irish moss isn't cutting it, try whirl-floc and see if it makes a difference. It's what I've always used and my beers are very clean and clear.

 

[Bubba Wade]

I don't seem to have much of a problem with chill haze, even though my process is one that does nothing to avoid it. I do a single step infusion mash with a very fine grind, almost always with 10% wheat. I only run a 30 minute boil. I don't use Irish moss or any other clarified. I run a very quick cooling cycle after the boil.

I do leave my batches in the primary a full two weeks. I naturally carbonate in a keg, combining this with a secondary fermentation of about four weeks. I chill the keg three days before tapping.

Sometimes it does seem that avoiding chill haze is a matter of luck.

One reason I think I may not get chill haze as much may have to do with hops. I primarily make Belgian styles and are not not dry hopped and generally lightly hopped. This may be a reason that I don't get chill haze very often.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Chill haze is a combination of proteins and polyphenols. They attach to each other when cold and separate when warmed. Clarifiers target either proteins or polyphenols. Gelatin and whirlfloc tablets target protein. PVPP targets polyphenols. Clear beer is a matter of choice. I like clear beer, so I clear beer in a number of ways. I always use a whirlfloc tablet in the boil. With lagers I use PVPP in the boil, 12 grams per 5 gallons. Gelatin will actually remove both, but it mostly proteins. You can clear it with gelatin after crashing, it work best to use post boil/fermentation clarifiers near freezing temperatures. PVPP can also be used in post fermentation, but I prefer to use it in the boil to avoid post fermentation oxygen ingress.

 

[BOB357]

My beers haven't been more prone to chill haze since switching to the Digiboil, so I doubt a vigorous boil matters much at our level.

 

[GFHomebrew]

One thing I hear may help but dont and havnt tried it myself is instead of string the hot break material in scooping it out.

I have issues with chill haze myself but eventually after a month my larger drop
Clear. I try to crash my beer colder than my serving temperature that way hoping that haze formation is negated in the keezer which sits at 4c

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

This is a paper I wrote up for my homebrew club a few years back. It needs some updating, mostly about PVPP. In the paper it shows how to get the PVPP in “aqueous suspension” with a stir plate for post fermentation use. PVPP can be added to boiling water prior to adding to the beer instead of the using a stir plate to get the same effect. The hot mixture can be added to the beer in the same manner as gelatin finings. I also don't mention using PVPP in the boil. PVPP can be added (12 grams per 5 gallons) the same time the whirlfloc is added. That's what I do now. I don't use PVPP unless I want the beer "polished", so I mainly use it on lagers.

It could use some editing too, I'm not much of a writer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-60w_IvRv3BRDdidmV5M0JhcDg/view?usp=sharing

 

[J A]

One thing I hear may help but dont and havnt tried it myself is instead of string the hot break material in scooping it out.

That's something I've always done from my very first batches as a matter of intuition. I figured that if I could get that foamy sludge out of the mix right away, I'd never have to worry about it in the beer. Also, I found that it helped prevent boil-overs, too. Less available for nucleation, I suppose.

 

[Mark Farrall]

...If you're doing a protein rest (some say it's not necessary with modern "over-modified" malts)...

Isn't is as much that it could hurt your head retention, rather than it's probably not needed becuase the protein is consumed during the malting? Not that I brew 100% barley beers that often, and the other grains I'm using would hide this problem if I did decide to do a protein rest.

 

[Ward Chillington]

A decent gas burner should get you a vigorous boil in a 7 gallon pot. What's your boil off rate? I would count on around 6 quarts per hour gallons when i used a pot that size.

Thanks J A...I'm using a 15 gallon pot and my boil off is between a gallon to a 1 1/4 gallon an hour given the relative humidity. WRT to the " modern "over-modified" malts) " , I got the haze with my last 2 smash batches using a simple 2 row pale malt. Maybe I should get the spec sheet on that to look into if that's part of the issue.

Thanks for the link HVM....lemme take a read and get back to you!

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's two...before and after

 

[J A]

Isn't is as much that it could hurt your head retention, rather than it's probably not needed becuase the protein is consumed during the malting? Not that I brew 100% barley beers that often, and the other grains I'm using would hide this problem if I did decide to do a protein rest.

I'm not sure what problems might ensue when doing the "unnecessary" protein rest, but I do a 15 minute rest at 122 when I dough in with every batch I do. I've never been certain about how various malts are converted and kilned but the question goes back to that notion of homebrew not being "real beer" because the malts supplied for the homebrew market are pushed further in the process in order to make single infusion malting more efficient.
I do all malt beers routinely and never add any Carapils or similar. I've never had a problem with head retention. I do add a small amount of wheat with some beers and it probably helps with head production and retention, but I still do the protein rest. When I do a lager with Pilsner and Vienna, the head is not heavy and pillow-y as it is when I do something with other malts but it's "to style".

 

[J A]

Thanks J A...I'm using a 15 gallon pot and my boil off is between a gallon to a 1 1/4 gallon an hour given the relative humidity. WRT to the " modern "over-modified" malts) " , I got the haze with my last 2 smash batches using a simple 2 row pale malt. Maybe I should get the spec sheet on that to look into if that's part of the issue.

Thanks for the link HVM....lemme take a read and get back to you!

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's two...before and after

Interesting...condensation always makes it look worse but that seems to be textbook chill haze. How cold are you storing your beers? Would be interesting to see if it holds up better at 38 than it does at 33. Near freezing makes a lot of beers act up. I'm guessing you're not getting it that cold, though.
Re: boil off...My 15 gallon pot boil off is set at 6 quarts per hour and that's typically on the low side. I set it on the low side so I'm not over-volume, under-gravity at the end of the boil. Judging from your boil off, I'd say you could go a little harder boil, but it depends a lot on kettle geometry and conditions. Still not certain that that would cure any chill haze problem.
Try Whirl Floc instead of Irish moss for a few batches and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Yooper]

One of the things that can reduce/stop chill haze is a great cold break. It's old now, but I wrote this article a number of years ago, and the part about cold break could probably be helpful: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/clear-wort-clear-beer-tips-from-yooper.678565/

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Thanks J A...I'm using a 15 gallon pot and my boil off is between a gallon to a 1 1/4 gallon an hour given the relative humidity. WRT to the " modern "over-modified" malts) " , I got the haze with my last 2 smash batches using a simple 2 row pale malt. Maybe I should get the spec sheet on that to look into if that's part of the issue.

Thanks for the link HVM....lemme take a read and get back to you!

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's two...before and after



View attachment 12345

View attachment 12346

That's classic chill haze, which is easily fixed. Most times gelatin is the easiest and works well. The beer in my profile picture is an American Lager. The beer is near freezing temperature in the photo. I cleared that beer by using gelatin first and a day later I used PVPP, both after crashing the beer to near freezing temperatures. It takes roughly 7-14 days of lagering to achieve that amount of clarity.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Yeah that's what i think is tricky about bottling your storing at room or cellar temp then you go and wack it in a nice cold fridge mine used to haze right up.

Kegging and storing in a keezer helps manage this chill haze as high voltage man stated above. But I rekon it dont mean diddly squat if it's being stored warm then there is no haze for the geletin ect to work on...

 

[Nosybear]

It doesn't matter as long as it doesn't bother you (and you're not entering it into a competition). Chill haze is strictly aesthetic, that said, I don't want it in my Pilsner. Chill to near-freezing to get a good haze going, then dose with gelatin. Your beer will look filtered. If it's not chill haze, for example if you have a starch haze, gelatin will not help. You'll need PVPP or silica gel for that one.

The other cure is time. My beers tend to be stored for a long time cold. They clear over time if I don't bother to fine them.

 

[Ward Chillington]

Interesting...condensation always makes it look worse but that seems to be textbook chill haze. How cold are you storing your beers? Would be interesting to see if it holds up better at 38 than it does at 33

It was very humid the other day so yeah..it didn't help but the before pix speaks volumes. That was after about 4 hours in the fridge which is about 45°F but I get the same results after a week in there.

HVM...good article...Lotta good science learned there...Yooper, Thanks also..lemme take a read. And Nosey...yes, this is purely aesthetic..

 

[Ward Chillington]

So back on this topic....last week while grabbing a bottle of my SaazTennial out of the fridge, I noticed that the Mason Jar with the reclaimed slurry and beer from the same batch of SaazT had a layer of beautifully clear beer over top of the slurry to which my reaction was a greatly confused and audible WTF! I've been baffled for some time now over why I have been getting chill haze in my pale beers where I've been giving the batch a vigorous boil and curbing my dumper habit of putting everything in the kettle into the carboy. I don't want to use any other finings but Irish Moss so please no suggestions for Whilfloc or any of the other chemical solutions and gelatin is a in a non-starter for my kosher buddy. All of this has led me to the the question I've been noodling over for the last few days now which is if my Priming process is making the haze?

Given that the beer in the Mason has gone through all the same steps as what's in the bottle with the exception of not getting primed and bottled, what the heck is going on here?

Here's the details for the priming and the reclaimed slurry:

I use Priming Sugar (corn sugar / dextrose) and bottle condition, the yeast trub slurry gets nothing obviously
Bottles and crowns get a StarSan soak as well as my Bottling bucket, the Mason jars get boiled
Bottles get a week to 2 weeks sit in a 72° F conditioning box, the slurry goes right in the 40°F fridge
Bottles come to ambient over a few days and then store in the cellar at anywhere between 40° and 65°F given the season, Mason is still in the fridge
Bottles go into the fridge a few days before getting in my belly and that's were they get hazy, the Mason is still in the fridge

Thoughts?

 

[Bubba Wade]

So back on this topic....last week while grabbing a bottle of my SaazTennial out of the fridge, I noticed that the Mason Jar with the reclaimed slurry and beer from the same batch of SaazT had a layer of beautifully clear beer over top of the slurry to which my reaction was a greatly confused and audible WTF! I've been baffled for some time now over why I have been getting chill haze in my pale beers where I've been giving the batch a vigorous boil and curbing my dumper habit of putting everything in the kettle into the carboy. I don't want to use any other finings but Irish Moss so please no suggestions for Whilfloc or any of the other chemical solutions and gelatin is a in a non-starter for my kosher buddy. All of this has led me to the the question I've been noodling over for the last few days now which is if my Priming process is making the haze?

Given that the beer in the Mason has gone through all the same steps as what's in the bottle with the exception of not getting primed and bottled, what the heck is going on here?

Here's the details for the priming and the reclaimed slurry:

I use Priming Sugar (corn sugar / dextrose) and bottle condition, the yeast trub slurry gets nothing obviously
Bottles and crowns get a StarSan soak as well as my Bottling bucket, the Mason jars get boiled
Bottles get a week to 2 weeks sit in a 72° F conditioning box, the slurry goes right in the 40°F fridge
Bottles come to ambient over a few days and then store in the cellar at anywhere between 40° and 65°F given the season, Mason is still in the fridge
Bottles go into the fridge a few days before getting in my belly and that's were they get hazy, the Mason is still in the fridge

Thoughts?

Sometimes it seems what clears the beer best is a long timeout in a cold place.

I carbonate in the keg. When I move the keg to the keezer and tap it, the beer is often cloudy during the first few days. And then it starts to clear up. Then I have very clear beer. This happens most of the time, but not always.

I suspect that the cold makes some of the smaller protein particles precipitate, causing a haze, and then they drop out of suspension.

Also, I do not use any clarifying agents and dump the whole kettle into the fermenter.

 

[Nosybear]

First, everything is chemical. Whirlfloc is simply carrageenan pressed with baking soda to help it disperse.
To the chill haze, was the sample you mention at room temperature? If so, it could have just as much haze as the beer, it's just warm enough that the protein is still in solution.