Adding sugar to boil kettle vs. fermenter

[56 Firedome]

@Pricelessbrewing "since "OG" is defined as the gravity at the time of the transfer into the kettle..."

As I read this I was brought up short. My issue has nothing to do with the subject of the post.

I've been Home Brewing for about 20 years. In all that time, I have taken my OG as the Wort is transferred to the Fermenter, not as it comes out of the Mash Tun. I do take a Pre-boil SG. After the Boil, after cooling to Pitch temp, after I Oxygenate, I record my OG.

So, maybe I've been doing it wrong all this time, or not. Please clarify, confirm or pillory the Bozo.

Sorry to hi-jack the post but this would seem to be a crucial issue to my ABV calculation.

Later
Firedome

 

[Viejos Cañones]

¿Esto es suponiendo que conocemos y hemos medido exactamente el rendimiento, la evaporación y la dilución de los azúcares diluidos como cualquier consumible? Todas estas herramientas nos acercan no podemos exigir precisión. Por favor. Bastante útiles son:genial:

 

[Viejos Cañones]

¿Esto es suponiendo que conocemos y hemos medido exactamente el rendimiento, la evaporación y la dilución de los azúcares diluidos como cualquier consumible? Todas estas herramientas nos acercan no podemos exigir precisión. Por favor. Bastante útiles son:genial:

This is assuming that we know and have measured exactly the yield, evaporation, and dilution of diluted sugars as any consumable? All these tools bring us closer we cannot demand accuracy. Please. Quite useful are

 

[56 Firedome]

@Pricelessbrewing Please clarify your reference to OG source of measurement. OG measured at Mash Out or at transfer to Fermenter.
I was unable to interpret the Spanish to English translation.
Thanks
56 Firedome

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

@Pricelessbrewing Please clarify your reference to OG source of measurement. OG measured at Mash Out or at transfer to Fermenter.
I was unable to interpret the Spanish to English translation.
Thanks
56 Firedome

They should be one in the same, OUT* of the kettle after the boil or INTO the fermenter the OG shouldn't change, that was most certainly a typo in my previous statement that somehow noone called me out on!

What I was trying to say was that the OG is measured BEFORE any late:fermenter additions are added, so this is why they don't affect the OG but do affect the ABV (although that may still not be correctly calculating).

At some point in the future, late additions will become disconnected from equipment and become tied specifically to a process step so you'll be able to say if you're adding your 1lb of sugar at the end of postboil, or after transfering to fermenter, or 7 days into fermenting. But that's a future project

 

[56 Firedome]

@Pricelessbrewing Thanks for the reply to my hi-jacking of your reply.
My concern had to do with when the OG sample is collected. Thank Autocomplete for the confusion.
As I understood your reply, "OG is defined as the gravity at the time of the transfer into the kettle...". That would be before the boil & at mashout temperature. I have been recording that SG, after some cooling, as the Pre-boil Gravity.
After the Boil, cooling & transfer to the Fermenter, I record SG & record that as the OG.
Autocorrect has caused confusion & entertainment for thousands.
Thanks for your input
56 Firedome

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

@Pricelessbrewing Thanks for the reply to my hi-jacking of your reply.
My concern had to do with when the OG sample is collected. Thank Autocomplete for the confusion.
As I understood your reply, "OG is defined as the gravity at the time of the transfer into the kettle...". That would be before the boil & at mashout temperature. I have been recording that SG, after some cooling, as the Pre-boil Gravity.
After the Boil, cooling & transfer to the Fermenter, I record SG & record that as the OG.
Autocorrect has caused confusion & entertainment for thousands.
Thanks for your input
56 Firedome

Yes that should be correct.

Preboil (and mash/kettle efficiency) uses the preboil gravity SG and preboil volume.

Batch/brewhouse efficiency uses the volume into the fermenter and OG before any ingredients are added to the beer in the fermenter

 

[Cajunbubba]

Yes when will the ticket be worked on to correct the known error for adding sugar to the fermentor.? With my Tilt I can see the SG jump up about 6 points once the sugar is added to the fermentor. The BF calculation needs to take those 6 points and add it to the ABV calculation which it does not do currently.

 

[56 Firedome]

@Pricelessbrewing - I am a native English speaker but I don't do it well. I have read & reread your reply but I don't think I got the answer to my question.
As I said my question had nothing to do with the subject of the 18 month old thread. I'm asking about the timing/sequence of recording the Original Gravity.
As I read your response, I understood you to say that the Original Gravity reading is taken as the Mash Tun is draining into the Kettle. Hot but not boiled.
I catch about a quart in a pitcher & let it cooI, I record that as the Preboil Specific Gravity (with temp).
After the Boil & Cooling to Pitch temperature, I transfer the Wort into the Fermenter & record what I have always thought of as the Original Gravity.
As I read your reply I thought I understood you to say these 2 SGs would be the same. My experience says otherwise. The Stout I made in March seems to support my thinking. My Preboil SG was 1.047 @75F. The SG after Boil & cooling to Pitch temperature was 1.063 @78F.
So, my question isn't about adding sugar to the Fermenter or the Kettle, it has to do with the definition of Original Gravity when used to calculate the ABV.
Is Original Gravity taken as the Sweet Wort drains into Kettle or after the boil as the Wort is going into the Fermenter?
Logic, or intuition, says after the Boil. After the Boil concentration due to evaporation, Mallyard reactions, Hop utilization & other ju-ju & Black Magic occurs.
Maybe I misunderstood your response or you misunderstood my original question. As I have been using the SG measurement going into the Fermenter to calculate my ABV for approximately 20 years, possibly incorrectly, I need to clarify my procedures.
Thanks for your patience but it seems a critical point.

 

[Limey]

Interesting discussion - my 2cents: I have always regarded O.G. as measured after the boil, cooled and into the fermenter. I also take a measurement pre-boil, but this is always lower than the O.G. since about a gallon of water boils off. As to adding fermentables after taking the O.G. measurement, surely this will screw up any calculations of alcohol since the calculation is based upon what percentage of sugars in the wort are converted to alcohol. If you add sugar after the O.G. reading, then the calculation will not work. I guess another way to consider O.G. would be the gravity of the wort after all sugar is added and prior to any fermentation? It is basically a measure of the potential for alcohol conversion!

 

[56 Firedome]

I looked in the Original Gravity & Final Gravity Chart -Updated 2017 chart to see if there was a definition of when Original Gravity reading would be taken.

It reads "Original gravity (OG) measures how much sugar is present in the wort before it is fermented. The final gravity (FG) is how much sugar is left over when fermentation is done."

While this doesn't specifically say "taken at the Fermenter when ready to pitch Yeast" it does seem to suggest the reason for comparing OG & FG is to test the Yeast conversion of sugar to alcohol. OG would seem to include all fermentable ingredients & that would be at the Fermenter.
So, once again, perhaps I misunderstood your responses or maybe I'm completely wrong.

 

[Donoroto]

So, once again, perhaps I misunderstood your responses or maybe I'm completely wrong.

In my humble opinion, OG can be just from grain or from sugar as well. That is, it can be both. Or more.

I think it comes down to the question "why do we need to know the OG?" The answer is, to calculate the alcohol by volume when you know both of the OG and the FG.

What that means is, if you want to know what the ABV is, use the OG after all the sugar has been added.

In my Belgian recipe (Alan's pee) the system accounted for the added sugar.

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

What @Donoroto said. The OG is the gravity of the wort after boiling, after cooling, and as it is being transferred into the fermenter (but before late:fermentor additions are added if applicable).

 

[AHarper]

By bit is. Gravity only comes from the fermentation by the yeast. So OG is before you pitch and FG is after the yeast does it's work = the amount of alcohol produced by the fermentation process.

Any other SG reading is only a guide as to how much sugars you have extracted from the grains and what has boiled off in the process. In any case... there are so many variables involved with small batches any variation in SG readings won't make much of a difference to the final product. Whatever the OG/FG equation works out to be I will drink it anyway and if it is too strong compared to the last time I brewed it - my headache will just last a bit longer...

 

[56 Firedome]

@Pricelessbrewing , @AHarper , @Donoroto - Thanks for the responses. I was reading the thread for general information. I high jacked this 18 month old thread after I read Priceless scientific reply to a question about adding fermentables after taking an OG reading.
I was attempting to clarify the definition of "OG". I read Priceless reply to the op to say OG was what I understood as Preboil SG. Obviously I misunderstood,.
Thanks to all for your patience