Tropical Stout (Rye Lager)

[Mashmellow]

I apologize up front for the complex malt bill and length of this post, but I’d appreciate any input. My neighbor likes the darker/heavier brews so I'm putting together a Tropical Stout recipe which I want to spice it with rye—this is a new one for me. This will be a 5Gal Lager brew, but I want to keep it British. I’m keeping the rye around 10-15% so it’s more just a spice than a Rye Beer, and this, I hope, will enhance the mouthfeel so I can drop flaked barley or oats. If that makes sense?

Recipe:

Base (77-80%) will be 8# Maris and 1.5# Rye Malt--charged with some late boil molasses.

The darkening/roast bill is made up of a total >10% combined Chocolate, Midnight Wheat and RB.

But, I am vacillating for the middle biscuit/texture character. I thought to add a combo of 1# Special Roast 30L with a half of C80, or (if I can find it) dropping those for some Weyermann Cara Rye 75L maybe @ 5-6% and back off on the Rye Malt a touch.

So, Questions: 1) If I can get the Cara Rye (which has a more intense biscuit flavor I’m told) would you recommend leaving in some of the Special Roast for the sweeter end or would they compete too much and gray it out? Maybe replace with a hint of C40?

2) What hops go well with rye in a brit beer. With the spiciness of Rye, I thought spicy, fruity and herbal, but non-citrusy would be best, no? Any recommendations? I am leaning toward 20 min flavor with EKG and a Northern Brewer bitter for 60 min, but honestly I'm a little nervous here. All other input also welcomed. Thank you.

 

[Craigerrr]

I don't have any input for you, but I am interested to see where this goes!

 

[Mashmellow]

I don't have any input for you, but I am interested to see where this goes!

It should be pretty good no matter. It's nuts how some of my biggest mess ups turn out to be some of the best beers, which has me scratching my head on how to replicate it. Thanks for responding

 

[Minbari]

Not sold on the molasses, the rest looks good though. Maybe add 5oz of black patent?

 

[Bigbre04]

I am unfamiliar with a tropical stout, but i just did a rye lager which turned out pretty well.

The flavor that you are looking for really dictates the dark malts you use. I personally dont love the bitterness from black malt(very rarely use it). I tend to use more black prinz, midnight wheat, chocolate. Roasted barley has its place, but it can get harsh quickly. I generally go low like 1-2% max with RB.

I like to layer flavors. If i am going for a dark stout i will use debittered malts for color and then build in things like Crystals 15-120, Brown malt, Special X(probably my favorite flavoring malt), i will then look at my lighter colored malts for graininess or biscuity flavors(munich 1/2, Vienna, Victory, etc.) I always add Wheat/flaked wheat/flaked oats/dextrin for mouthfeel and head retention.

Hops wise, I really like Loral. I use columbus cryo for bittering(i would prefer magnum, but i cant get it in cryo). I currently have Willamette/loral cryo for my more noble hops. I also have some mandarina bavaria on hand, but that doesnt really fit in this style.

For my oatmeal porter im going for the sweeter side of balanced hop-wise. so im going for 24ish ibus. if you wanted a more overall balanced hop profile maybe shoot for being in the 30s.

This is my rye lager
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1501040

This is an oatmeal porter that im brewing tomorrow
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1501840

I have a bunch more dark beers that i have done if you want to see them i can post them.

 

[Mashmellow]

Not sold on the molasses, the rest looks good though. Maybe add 5oz of black patent?

Yeah, I'm having second thoughts on molasses too--just felt tropical. Don't really need it and I think it will conflict with the biscuity backdrop I trying to get. I added just a quarter pound of Midnight Wheat instead of Black Patent mainly because I find it a little smoother alongside of RB, but I'll take another look. I'm only about 2% MidWheat 3% RB and 5% Chocolate. Pretty dark, but again I want the spice and biscuit to pop more. Thank you.

 

[Mashmellow]

, but i cant get it in cryo

That is super helpful. I shy away from RB too, probably because I got into this crazy hobby to make my own Coffee Porters. Trying to branch out for friends. I was at 3% RB but I will back off or eliminate altogether. I am concerned about the ABV overpowering these beers so I was trying to balance up flavors with all the ashy malt.
For hops, never used Loral, not sure I can get it, but I have tons of Magnum and Northern Brewer--boring but reliable. I think I may rework this and build up some of the color with Dark Munich and astringency with slightly higher BU/GU ratio. It might end up just being a robust rye porter though-but as a porter nut somehow they all seem to come around to that in by the third iteration anyway. I tried. I really like the recipes you posted. That oatmeal porter is bold, I need to try it. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Bigbre04]

That is super helpful. I shy away from RB too, probably because I got into this crazy hobby to make my own Coffee Porters. Trying to branch out for friends. I was at 3% RB but I will back off or eliminate altogether. I am concerned about the ABV overpowering these beers so I was trying to balance up flavors with all the ashy malt.

small amounts of RB can be awesome. it has a really important flavor for certain styles. It is very potent IMO.

For hops, never used Loral, not sure I can get it, but I have tons of Magnum and Northern Brewer--boring but reliable. I think I may rework this and build up some of the color with Dark Munich and astringency with slightly higher BU/GU ratio. It might end up just being a robust rye porter though-but as a porter nut somehow they all seem to come around to that in by the third iteration anyway. I tried. I really like the recipes you posted. That oatmeal porter is bold, I need to try it. Thanks for taking the time.

magnum and Northern brewer are good for stouts. Boring hops are the point in stouts!

im brewing the porter tomorrow!

 

[Bigbre04]

This stout turned out really well.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1437455

This is the same stout as above but with new world hops...ended up doing the nobles instead.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1437210

Another stout that i brewed last year
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1454166

 

[Mashmellow]

This stout turned out really well.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1437455

This is the same stout as above but with new world hops...ended up doing the nobles instead.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1437210

Another stout that i brewed last year
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1454166

Absolutely love the moniker "Twist and Stout!!" I like the your choice of Oat Flakes over the Flaked Barley too. Seems like your secret weapon. Thank you for sharing these. I can't wait to try one out.

 

[Minbari]

Absolutely love the moniker "Twist and Stout!!" I like the your choice of Oat Flakes over the Flaked Barley too. Seems like your secret weapon. Thank you for sharing these. I can't wait to try one out.

Flaked oat and barley do two different things. I usually use both in stouts

 

[Megary]

I’d argue that a Stout without Roasted Barley and Flaked Barley is actually a Porter, but it’s all semantics.

I would also argue that you won’t get ”spice” from 10% Rye in any style, let alone a beer that has so many competing flavors.

However…
I really like the idea of layering your malts for a Tropical Stout. I still think you want roast, but this isn’t a dry stout or Irish stout. 2-row Pale, Munich, Roasted Barley, Flaked Barley, Pale Chocolate, and maybe one or two C-malts is where I‘d start. If you want to use Rye, sub some Pale Rye in for the base malt or maybe add some Chocolate Rye to your dark grains.

If you use Maris Otter, just make sure your diastatic power is high enough for correct conversion. That’s a lot of specialty mats.

I think fruity hops can work but I wouldn’t go crazy. Cascade would be my choice if you want to add some late hop aroma/flavor. Or just bitter with Magnum…30 IBU’s or so. The sweeter you make the beer, the more I would up the IBU’s for balance. The roastier you go, the less iBU’s. Roast brings an inherent bitterness with it already.

My .02. But that’s because opinions are cheap…everyone has one.

Good luck. Following…

 

[Mashmellow]

I’d argue that a Stout without Roasted Barley and Flaked Barley is actually a Porter, but it’s all semantics.

I would also argue that you won’t get ”spice” from 10% Rye in any style, let alone a beer that has so many competing flavors.

However…
I really like the idea of layering your malts for a Tropical Stout. I still think you want roast, but this isn’t a dry stout or Irish stout. 2-row Pale, Munich, Roasted Barley, Flaked Barley, Pale Chocolate, and maybe one or two C-malts is where I‘d start. If you want to use Rye, sub some Pale Rye in for the base malt or maybe add some Chocolate Rye to your dark grains.

If you use Maris Otter, just make sure your diastatic power is high enough for correct conversion. That’s a lot of specialty mats.

I think fruity hops can work but I wouldn’t go crazy. Cascade would be my choice if you want to add some late hop aroma/flavor. Or just bitter with Magnum…30 IBU’s or so. The sweeter you make the beer, the more I would up the IBU’s for balance. The roastier you go, the less iBU’s. Roast brings an inherent bitterness with it already.

My .02. But that’s because opinions are cheap…everyone has one.

Good luck. Following…

Thanks, excellent info. I appreciate your take on the spice from Rye. I agree about the competing flavors, normally I'd say spice at 10%, flavor at 15% and basically a Rye beer at 20% or greater, but what do I know, I haven't done it. Also, I thought I'd get all the mouthfeel texture from the Rye, so flaked grains were not as necessary. Seems I may be wrong there too, huh? How about 15% rye and substitute Cara rye or equivalent for the special roast for the biscuit. Probably need to back off on the Maris and go 2-Row Pale and Munich to get the enzymes. Thanks.

 

[Bigbre04]

My rye beer is on draft. Its getting very good reviews from all who have tried it. Its very interesting. It has a very different flavor then i what i was expecting. Its sort of a sweet, smooth flavor. I initially thought that i was getting butter from it, but i think that it is the combo of being early in the morning when i tried it and the different flavor from the rye.

 

[Mashmellow]

My rye beer is on draft. Its getting very good reviews from all who have tried it. Its very interesting. It has a very different flavor then i what i was expecting. Its sort of a sweet, smooth flavor. I initially thought that i was getting butter from it, but i think that it is the combo of being early in the morning when i tried it and the different flavor from the rye.

Sounds pretty nice. I love the little surprises. I bet it would round out and age really well but it sound like your customers will drink it all before it gets a chance.

 

[Bigbre04]

Sounds pretty nice. I love the little surprises. I bet it would round out and age really well but it sound like your customers will drink it all before it gets a chance.

ya. i dont think it will last too long. This is also the first time that i have used Rye for anything other then a RIPA.

i ended up tossing Voss into the oatmeal porter since my chiller was acting up. its down to 5.7% @ 73% attenuation which is really good for the style(on day 5 lol)! Im gonna leave it warm for another day or 2 and then crash it. Keg it up on Monday!

lightly smoked Vienna Lager is lovely and sitting at 5.6% @ 77% attenuation! Going in kegs on Monday!

I love dark beer season!

 

[Donoroto]

early in the morning when i tried it

Did you have a buttered bagel for breakfast?

 

[Bigbre04]

Did you have a buttered bagel for breakfast?

naw it just hits different at 9am lol.

Confirmed that it was not Diacetyl by a brewer friend who stopped by today! I am not crazy!

 

[Donoroto]

naw it just hits different at 9am lol.

Confirmed that it was not Diacetyl by a brewer friend who stopped by today! I am not crazy!

...at least, not crazy in this regard... LOL.

 

[Bigbre04]

...at least, not crazy in this regard... LOL.

100% crazy. Pretty flattering though, he asked me to come talk to the local homebrew club.