Biotransformation? Hops? Schedule?

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What is your preferred Biotransformation Hops?

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Sunfire96 said:
Yep, that's why it's called biotransformation: the compounds are the result of a biological process supplied by the yeast (fermentation)
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Yup apparently some yeast strains will do this "Biotransformation " others won't.
I found Kviek seem to Biotransform well I got some crazy citrus pithy flavours dry hopping a high krausen as you sorta have to do with that yeast blink and fermentation is finished.
 
Trialben said:
Biotransformation is also a yeast driven thing if I understand it correctly something about changing chemical composition of certain hop oils.

The jury is still out on it.
Here's a great podcast I found interesting on the subject
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1P...i=XQB0gOs8TOiApbJUJcrkXQ&utm_source=copy-link
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Yeah it's yeast driven, and only certain hops work well with the concept because of the chemical make up of each hop. Best results is during the High Kruasen phase, when the yeast is super active and hungry
 
Dirty Dingo Brewing CO. said:
Yeah it's yeast driven, and only certain hops work well with the concept because of the chemical make up of each hop. Best results is during the High Kruasen phase, when the yeast is super active and hungry
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Did ya check out that podcast man heaps of info in there.
I'm not a crazy hop head so I've done the bio thing a couple of times I'd love to have a crack at some of these fruit bomb genetically mod yeasts out on the market too.
 
Dirty Dingo Brewing CO. said:
Yeah it's yeast driven, and only certain hops work well with the concept because of the chemical make up of each hop. Best results is during the High Kruasen phase, when the yeast is super active and hungry
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doesn’t it completely rely on diastaticus postiive yeast rather than the hops? Saf-o5 comes to mind. I dryhop when fermentation is almost complete using 05 and have had some nice results. As long as the yeast isn’t dead you’ll get bio transformation or at least that’s been my experience. I’ve even had dry hopping with diastaticus positive yeast strains help fully attenuate a slightly under attenuated beer. Omega is even gene editing yeast now specifically for the diastaticus gene.
 
I don't no man but I think alot of brewerys don't want diastaticus yeast in their brewhouse it can cause some unexpected packaging issues down the track and product recall if kept unchecked = profit loss.
 
Dornbox said:
doesn’t it completely rely on diastaticus postiive yeast rather than the hops? Saf-o5 comes to mind. I dryhop when fermentation is almost complete using 05 and have had some nice results. As long as the yeast isn’t dead you’ll get bio transformation or at least that’s been my experience. I’ve even had dry hopping with diastaticus positive yeast strains help fully attenuate a slightly under attenuated beer. Omega is even gene editing yeast now specifically for the diastaticus gene.
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Yeah, it needs to be used with certain yeast types, and 05 is a good yeast for it from experience. As to why, I'm not entirely sure on the science.

and @Trialben, that's probably true, but I know in Australia 05 is EXTREMELY common. I'd say 60% of beers at least followed by 34/70.
 
Dirty Dingo Brewing CO. said:
Yeah, it needs to be used with certain yeast types, and 05 is a good yeast for it from experience. As to why, I'm not entirely sure on the science.

and @Trialben, that's probably true, but I know in Australia 05 is EXTREMELY common. I'd say 60% of beers at least followed by 34/70.
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What you saying S-05 is Diastaticus varient let me check as far as I know it is negative.

As above Diastaticus is a varient of Saccaramyces "Saccaramyces Diastaticus "
I couldn't Imagine a brewery introducing this yeast onto their brewhouse to aid in "Biotransformation"
https://www.chaibio.com/beer-spoilage/diastaticus

This is a bad side of Diastaticus spoilage
https://www.google.com/amp/s/beeran...hand-sues-white-labs-over-contaminated-yeast/
 
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The enzyme that converts one type of hop oil to another is yeast strain dependent. Nothing to do with diastaticus though. I think US05 has the gene, but doesn't seem to create much if any of the enzyme, so not a great strain for the hop oil biotransformation.
 
Trialben said:
What you saying S-05 is Diastaticus varient let me check as far as I know it is negative.

As above Diastaticus is a varient of Saccaramyces "Saccaramyces Diastaticus "
I couldn't Imagine a brewery introducing this yeast onto their brewhouse to aid in "Biotransformation"
https://www.chaibio.com/beer-spoilage/diastaticus

This is a bad side of Diastaticus spoilage
https://www.google.com/amp/s/beeran...hand-sues-white-labs-over-contaminated-yeast/
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US05 is not diastaticus. Any yeast that secretes glucoamylase is considered diastaticus. It's mostly found in Belgian strains. It's consider an infection if it's not intended. It causes extreme attenuation, like going from 1.90 to .1002. So if it gets into a non-Belgian it causes the fermentation to go on forever because the glucoamylase continues to produce glucose as it ferments and after the maltose is gone. It could take weeks for it to hit terminal gravity.
 
I honestly don't know how diastaticus yeast got associated with Biotransformation maybe the thread went sideways lol.

I've been listening reading up on some interesting things relating to this "Biotransformation" phenomenon.
First studies I've herd references to early 2000 here is a cool reference in regards to different monoterpene compounds in these hops.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...n-various-hops-HHT-Hallertauer_fig2_261475199

It sounds like the yeasts Biotransformation of hop monoterpenes into different monoterpenes.

Listening to this brulab pody on Biotransformation it's some heavy listening but it's starting to make some sence to me:p.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0L...oLRrCV5_neyDBN8A&utm_source=native-share-menu
Key points I found so far below

Glycocides releasing aromatic compounds bound to sugar molecules
https://www.google.com/search?clien...HcVJAO4QkeECKAB6BAgBEAI&biw=360&bih=587&dpr=3

Thiols being released by a different enzyme that the yeast produces

https://www.brewersassociation.org/...-hop-harvest-and-their-impact-on-beer-flavor/

Lastly as per that podcast it's still a murky as ever if Biotransformation has a perceptible impact or Wether it's an act of more mechanical processes co2 (introduction hops early in fermentation) scrubbing of less favourable compounds such as myrcene
 
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I think someone changed the language!
If I have to work so hard just to understand what you're talking about, I'll likely just pass.
 
The Brew Mentor said:
I think someone changed the language!
If I have to work so hard just to understand what you're talking about, I'll likely just pass.
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Oh man too true I've been schooling up on the subject all second hand information via podcasts and snippets I've found on the Web. Thiols and releasing them is a dark art :D.

It's sorta like the new thing in the brewing world but Thiols have been known about for more than 20 years but it's the releasing of them or (cleaving) from their bound structure volatizing them making them detectable to the snifter that is the hard part.


It's a yeast strain thing some yeast strains are purported to do "it".

Some CRISPA gene editing yeast do "it" as well

Is it useful to me in my brewing not really I'm at the end of the line being a Hombrewer but I do love me some tropical fruity hop forward beers.
 
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Was reading this article and thought of this thread

https://byo.com/article/advanced-dry-hopping-techniques/

Glycosides are in fact a combination of a terpenoid (see earlier) with a sugar molecule (glucose). Peter Wolfe took the time to slowly explain how glycosides can play a prominent role in the aroma of beer. Glycosides are tied together with a “relatively” unstable bond (an ester bond) between the glucose group and the terpenoid. In beer, this ester bond can hydrolyze (break apart) and release the terpenoid and the glucose to the solution. So if you can hydrolyze the glycoside, you increase the terpenoids in solution.

I emphasized the word relatively in quotes in the last paragraph for a reason: To highlight the term. This bond break won’t happen by itself; it needs a push. That can happen via two pathways. The first is a spontaneous reaction based on the pH of the solution. The lower the pH, the faster the spontaneous hydrolysis reaction can occur. This is convenient since beer pH is much lower than wort pH and this spontaneous reaction won’t occur until pH is down near 4.4. The pH of beer is generally 4–4.2. The lower the pH, the faster this hydrolysis reaction occurs. The second pathway has been shown to occur thanks to yeast.

...

So what are biotransformations anyway? Once again I turned to Peter Wolfe to help dissect this term. He explained that when we talk about biotransformations on hop compounds we are talking about oil components that yeast have modified. An important aspect is that we are talking mainly about terpenoids and glycosides. Terpenes are rarely affected by biotransformations. Biotransformations of hop compounds in beer can occur in two forms. The first is fairly straightforward when one compound is transformed into another. An example of this would be the transformation of geraniol to ß-citronellol. The second biotransformation is the hydrolysis of the glycosides which was introduced earlier. Certain yeast strains have shown the ability to transform non-aromatic glycosides into aromatic terpenoids. Shellhammer and Wolfe found that certain aromatic terpenoids increased their concentration over time in the presence of yeast. This may be just one reason many people find bottle conditioned or unfiltered beer to be superior to filtered beer.
 
So let me update this thread.

I have tried now, for several brews, to cold crash dry hop to limit the amount of terpines in the beer.

However, I actually hate the taste, and find it thin. Maybe the American in me actually prefers the astringency in beer, especially dry hopped beer, but I've gone back to dry hopping day 3.

@Sunfire96 has highlighted great point, biotransformation doesn't CHANGE anything, it CONVERTS chemical bonds. The beer I'm currently drinking is titled 'Last Second' on my profile, and it is an absolute ACE. I believe this is the case because US-05 has made certain chemical bonds in Chinook more pleasing. Give the recipe a go and see for yourself. I also notice that yeast on the high temp of its tolerance will give you a better biotransformation as a result
 
Dirty Dingo Brewing CO. said:
So let me update this thread.

I have tried now, for several brews, to cold crash dry hop to limit the amount of terpines in the beer.

However, I actually hate the taste, and find it thin. Maybe the American in me actually prefers the astringency in beer, especially dry hopped beer, but I've gone back to dry hopping day 3.

@Sunfire96 has highlighted great point, biotransformation doesn't CHANGE anything, it CONVERTS chemical bonds. The beer I'm currently drinking is titled 'Last Second' on my profile, and it is an absolute ACE. I believe this is the case because US-05 has made certain chemical bonds in Chinook more pleasing. Give the recipe a go and see for yourself. I also notice that yeast on the high temp of its tolerance will give you a better biotransformation as a result
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You could try some of the known (Biotransformation) yeast strains out there lallamands Hazey yeast New England East Coast yeast for instance.
 
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