Trying to Understand water chemical calculator

[Mastoras007]

Hello evryone it's me again.
someone explain me because i'm confused.
What i have undersand until now:
At ''1'' panel i see those chemicals need to be added on water (lets say water is from RO) depending on the profile i have chose for example saying Ca+2 -60 so i need to add 60mg of Calcium per liter of water, so this is for 500 liters 60*500=30000mg = 30g of Calsium is this correct?

what i don't understand: what is panel 2 ? why if i change those values everything change?

Wen need to be aded those chemicals before after or during the boil?
what is the water number i need to use? total water? final beer volume? preboil + sparge?
Tia

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Hello evryone it's me again.
someone explain me because i'm confused.
What i have undersand until now:
At ''1'' panel i see those chemicals need to be added on water (lets say water is from RO) depending on the profile i have chose for example saying Ca+2 -60 so i need to add 60mg of Calcium per liter of water, so this is for 500 liters 60*500=30000mg = 30g of Calsium is this correct?

what i don't understand: what is panel 2 ? why if i change those values everything change?

Wen need to be aded those chemicals before after or during the boil?
what is the water number i need to use? total water? final beer volume? preboil + sparge?
Tya
View attachment 30235

You math looks correct but, 500 Liters? Or are you just playing with the numbers for now?
When you add the various brewing salts the affect multiple ions. For instance, Gypsum (CaSO4) is made up of both Calcium (Ca) and Sulfate (SO4). So adding gypsum will increase both those values. This is where the trial and error begins. For instance, lets say you needed more calcium but your sulfate level is already where you want it. So you could add Calcium Chloride (CaCl2). In the case of Calcium Chloride the Chloride ions would increase more than calcium because there are two chlorine atoms for every one calcium atom. And you just need to get close. Adjusting water chemistry is one of the least impactful things you can do that affects the taste of your beer.

Also the blue triangles are informing you that both your calcium and sulfate ions are way too low and need to be increased. The stars mean the levels are good and a red triangle means the levels are way too high.

One last thing, you add brewing salts to the strike water (and possibly sparge water) before adding the grains.

I hope anyone whose last chemistry class is less than 45 years ago will correct my mistakes.

 

[Mastoras007]

You math looks correct but, 500 Liters? Or are you just playing with the numbers for now?
When you add the various brewing salts the affect multiple ions. For instance, Gypsum (CaSO4) is made up of both Calcium (Ca) and Sulfate (SO4). So adding gypsum will increase both those values. This is where the trial and error begins. For instance, lets say you needed more calcium but your sulfate level is already where you want it. So you could add Calcium Chloride (CaCl2). In the case of Calcium Chloride the Chloride ions would increase more than calcium because there are two chlorine atoms for every one calcium atom. And you just need to get close. Adjusting water chemistry is one of the least impactful things you can do that affects the taste of your beer.

Also the blue triangles are informing you that both your calcium and sulfate ions are way too low and need to be increased. The stars mean the levels are good and a red triangle means the levels are way too high.

One last thing, you add brewing salts to the strike water (and possibly sparge water) before adding the grains.

I hope anyone whose last chemistry class is less than 45 years ago will correct my mistakes.

Ok, 500 liters is just for example
But if i add my brewing salts before mashing what if i need reduce or increase mash pH?
In this case the chemical I'm going to use will change everything

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Ok, 500 liters is just for example
But if i add my brewing salts before mashing what if i need reduce or increase mash pH?
In this case the chemical I'm going to use will change everything

Brewing salts only have small effects on mash pH. To adjust mash pH I use phosphoric acid, lactic acid, or most often acidulated malt. Trying to adjust mash pH during the mash is challenging because mash pH is always changing. So you are chasing a moving target. Those home brewers who have pH meters say that the brewing software they use does a good job predicting mash pH. If you do have a pH meter, just note the deviation in the current batch and factor that into the next.

 

[Mastoras007]

Those home brewers who have pH meters say that the brewing software they use does a good job predicting mash pH

Wich is this brewing software?

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Wich is this brewing software?

I use the Brewer's Friend Recipe Builder, which has a link to the Water Calculator. They are in Calculator section of the Tools pull-down menu. Martin Brungard has a downloadable water calculator, called Bru'n Water, that is highly rated. In fact in the screen shot below I used Brun Water's target values for his Brown Balanced instead of the default values. You can see that a couple of the values are in the red. But, they are close enough. Plus I it was more important for me to get my sulfate to chloride ratio close to 2:1 to enhance the hop bitterness perception. So, it's all trial-and-error, getting close, and making trade offs. But I must warn you that I am very far from a water expert!

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Also, I'd recommend using the Advanced Water Calc from within the recipe editor on an actual recipe. It pulls in your grain bill and water requirements and estimates pH accordingly before salts and acid. I then put in my salts to hit the flavor profile I want, followed by acid to hit the pH target I want. Note, I have found that it helps if the water calc is the *last* thing I do to the recipe as changing other parts of the recipe can affect this calc and you'll have to do it over again, but the software doesn't always seem to pick up on the changes. (caching problem on the server maybe?)

I have also played with Bru'n'water and find it excellent. I used to use it before Brewer's Friend, but now just stick with the built-in water calc for convenience. I have tested the two on several recipes and find they are comparable enough to be in the 'Horseshoes & Handgrenades' category. (any other difference is in the brewer!)

 

[Brewer #437123]

Hey there! Looks like you’ve got most of it down pretty well. Just to clear up the confusion about Panel 2 and why changing values there affects everything—it’s because when you change the salt additions, you're altering multiple ion levels at once, like calcium and sulfate for gypsum (CaSO₄), so the software adjusts all related values automatically.
As for when to add salts, generally it’s before or during mashing, not after the boil. If you need to adjust pH, that’s usually done with acids like phosphoric or lactic acid rather than salts.
Regarding water volume, you’d usually base your salt additions on total water (strike + sparge).
For software, like BarbarianBrewer mentioned, Brewer’s Friend and Bru’n Water are solid options for getting your pH and water profile dialed in!
Hope this helps!

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Regarding water volume, you’d usually base your salt additions on total water (strike + sparge).

Since it's the strike water that the mash will be occurring in, treating sparge water is optional. By the time you are sparging, the mash process should be complete. Therefore I only treat my strike water. I don't see any problem with treating sparge water, I just don't know of a benefit.

 

[Blackmuse]

Wich is this brewing software?

I use this brewing software and recently bought a pH meter - spot on. I've used it several times and I can vouch that Brewer's Friend does a great job predicting. I'm glad I confirmed it but probably should have just saved the money.

 

[Blackmuse]

@Mastoras007 - Have you checked out the video tutorials stickied on the forum? It may help.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/forums/brewing-videos-and-tutorials.30/

There's one there on water calculations. Looks like most of your questions have been answered. My recommendation is to not try to hit numbers from a Target Water profile... You will chase numbers with salt additions all day/night!

Instead, try to meet appropriate levels to have enough of each type of salt to have healthy enzyme levels and eventually yeast health (Green stars) WHILE ALSO trying to hit a 1.0 balance if you are going for a balanced profile (below 1.0 for malty and above 1.0 for hoppy) - be sure to watch you're pH level too.

I also recommend trying to get salts where you want them and then finish tweaking your pH via acid additions. I only add salts to my mash (prior to doughing in) and adjust my sparge water with acid addition only.


Here's an example.

NOTE - build the recipe, save it, and THEN click green EDIT button under water calculations (malts you add effect mash pH) - (sorry if you already knew this and this is already what you're doing)...

 

[Over The Cliff Brewing]

I use this brewing software and recently bought a pH meter - spot on. I've used it several times and I can vouch that Brewer's Friend does a great job predicting. I'm glad I confirmed it but probably should have just saved the money.

I too bought a PH meter and have not used it in 2 years. I go by the BF recipe builder and have not looked back.

 

[Mastoras007]

You're right.
I used recipe builder and have give me a ph measure.
But what's the factors change that?
Depending the water ph? Grains used? Mash thincnes?

 

[Blackmuse]

You're right.
I used recipe builder and have give me a ph measure.
But what's the factors change that?
Depending the water ph? Grains used? Mash thincnes?

Mash thickness does not really affect pH (at least brewers friend doesn't seem to account for it and I have not personally noticed a difference in my pH with thicker mashes vs thinner mashes. (some out there may disagree - I'm just telling you my experiences)

Grains certainly DO affect pH.

Try this:

1. You need to know your starting pH to get an accurate estimate from the builder. You should start by testing your water or pulling a water report for your city/area. I use water from my well and have tested my water 3 times over the course of 5 years. My pH is slightly acidic 6.5. (Having my water tested (a brewer's test via WARD LABS) also gave me the level of hardness and the important ions (Mg, Ca, Cl S04 etc.)

2. Once you have your starting pH entered into your brewing profile (My Brewing / My Equipment / Water Profiles) your water calculator should start with that pH and work from there.

3. Nothing will show in the recipe until you do 2 things:
i. add grains
ii. add a water amount (or use quick water requirements)
- your pH will change based on your starting pH and the grains you added.

4. Finish building your recipe - each grain addition may slightly or significantly alter your pH depending on type of grain and amount...

5. Click on the green LINK button under Water Chemistry - this will bring up the calculator you were using earlier and you can start to tweak your pH with salts and/or acid additions.
- try adding to salt to MASH only - don't even worry about sparge for now but you could use a touch of lactic acid to bring it down if you felt the need.

I hope this helps some... Again, check out the video section for visuals. Fast forward/skim through as needed...

Prost!

 

[Mastoras007]

Ok I got it.
Made my recipe add everything to it. Made also a water profile put everything 0, let's say I use RO,
I had ph 5,7 according to recipe builder, I don't really know how much i had, I don't have any ph meter anyway i add 1 tsp of gypsum and i continue brewing.
Waiting for the results

 

[Blackmuse]

Ok I got it.
Made my recipe add everything to it. Made also a water profile put everything 0, let's say I use RO,
I had ph 5,7 according to recipe builder, I don't really know how much i had, I don't have any ph meter anyway i add 1 tsp of gypsum and i continue brewing.
Waiting for the results

Did you add the tsp of gypsum into the water calculator and see how it would adjust the pH? You want your mash pH to be between 5.2 and 5.6... I do not think the 1 tsp of gypsum would get you to 5.6 from 5.7 but a tsp of gypsum AND a tsp of Calcium Chloride might get you pretty close. With the "test" recipe I made it got me to 5.57 (but my starting pH is probably a bit lower than RO water)... You should strive to have at least 50 mg/l of calcium in every mash as it is great for enzyme activity (beneficial to yeast during fermentation too). Plus, 1 tsp calcium chloride and 1 tsp gypsum will lead to a nice balanced mash profile - if that's what you're going for...

(1 tsp calcium chloride, 1 tsp gypsum and 1 tsp epsom salt should get you into the bitter range - but that's not something I typically do so I'll let the IPA makers give better advice on that front.)

I'm more of a mash pH below 5.5 (usually pretty close to 5.2 with a lactic acid addition) and a malty or balanced profile - typically heavier on the CaCl addition than epsom and gypsum combined...

I hope this helps. Let me know if you want me to make a video using your recipe to show you what I mean. I could try to give that a whirl sometime this weekend or through the week. (Just offering)

Keep at it! Learning water is a great way to tweek recipes or bring okay beer right into a range you were looking for... When I moved from one house (well) to another (house/well). I immediately noticed a difference and that's what got me into water calculations.

Happy Brewing!

 

[Mastoras007]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1505158/blonde-ale-
Thats the recipe
After adding the gupsium the ph is updated
BUT as i said i don't know what's my current ph also my water chemistry is not accurate on builder
I have added a profile with RO water but in reality i use carbon filter water witch I don't have idea about minerals inside to it
You can make a video, i think will help more people except me!

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

If you on a municipal water supply, check their website or call them. They should be able to provide you with an analysis of the water they are providing. If you are on a well then you're only option is to have your water tested.

 

[Mastoras007]

If you on a municipal water supply, check their website or call them. They should be able to provide you with an analysis of the water they are providing. If you are on a well then you're only option is to have your water tested.

But I use carbon filter so this change the values or not?

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

A carbon filter (my water runs thorough one) doesn't affect pH. They will remove or reduce contaminants and other things that impact odor and flavor. It supposedly removes chlorine too but, I'm not sold on that claim. I believe it will remove some chlorine but, I've heard that the water flow has to be very slow to remove all the chlorine. Plus, I'm not sure if it removes chloramine which is a more stable form of chlorine used in many municipal water systems here in the U.S..