The novice and his spunding valve.

[Eponymous]

By way of introduction I’m an absolute beginner in the world of brewing and all advice is welcome. I’ve brewed my first ever batch, which went well until I tried to carbonate it naturally using my spunding valve (no innuendo intended)
The problem is that nothing happens.

I have a 29l kegmenter and the kegmenter pressure kit. I’ve checked that I’ve attached it to the gas outlet and NOT the liquid outlet. I turn the yellow knob until it stops but nothing happens?

I don’t have a cylinder with which to add co2 however when I cleaned the kegmenter and sealed the lid I did notice bubbles coming through the pressure release valve at the weld.

Is it possible to naturally carbonate this way or have I totally misunderstood this process? Are the bubbles coming out at the weld an indication that the pressure kit is faulty?

Any and all advice is welcome. Please go easy on the jargon and tell it to me like I’m a five year old!

Thank you all!

 

[WesBrew]

It might be that the pressure releif valve isn't snug enough or could be missing a seal. does your spunding valve register any pressure after its been closed for a day? maybe the fermentation is already complete? check the gravity.
if you wanted to fully carbonate in the kegmentor i'd think you would have to add some priming sugar after the wort fermentation is complete and fully close up the spunding valve. i havent done this in mine as i transfer to a keg and force carbonate.

 

[Eponymous]

It might be that the pressure releif valve isn't snug enough or could be missing a seal. does your spunding valve register any pressure after its been closed for a day? maybe the fermentation is already complete? check the gravity.
if you wanted to fully carbonate in the kegmentor i'd think you would have to add some priming sugar after the wort fermentation is complete and fully close up the spunding valve. i havent done this in mine as i transfer to a keg and force carbonate.

 

[Eponymous]

Many thanks for the reply. I started spunding on day four of fermentation which I understood to be the right time in order not to kill the yeast.

The spunding valve registers nothing. I've just completed a second brew and it's still the same. Nothing happens.

I suspect it's the pressure release valve. I'll try with your suggestion of adding priming sugar to the keg. Is that something I should do directly or when fermentation is complete?

Once again thank you.

 

[Josh Hughes]

Co2 is Getting out or fermentation was complete. In order to spund you have to know where you are gravity wise and what you should end up with. 8-10 points left it will work if sealed. You won’t kill the yeast if you use pressure from the beginning. You don’t need sugar if you have gravity points left.

For lagers I put mine on at the start or once Fermentation starts. I set it 10-15 psi and then close it with a few points left. For ales I let it ferment a day Or 2 then Put on my spunding valve set at 15 psi. Psi will depend on temp and carbonation level desired. You don’t have to pressure ferment like this but if you have gravity points left you can get carbonation from the co2 being produced.

if you are carbonating with sugar add when fermentation is complete

 

[Minbari]

If you have bubbles coming out where the PRV is (you said at the weld) then you won't be able to pressurize it
It HAS to be air tight

 

[Donoroto]

Is it possible to naturally carbonate this way or have I totally misunderstood this process? Are the bubbles coming out at the weld an indication that the pressure kit is faulty?

Hello, and welcome!

Can you carbonate this way? Yes and no. Maybe.

Of course, to add CO2 to a water-based liquid, you increase its pressure above atmospheric and some of the CO2 dissolves in the liquid. Exactly how much dissolves determines the level of fizz, and that depends on both the CO2 pressure and the liquid temperature. There is a chart showing this relationship.

So if your fermentation was NOT complete, the yeast is still making CO2. If you let this CO2 build up, it will be at a certain pressure (whatever your spunding valve is set to) and a certain temperature. Use the chart to see what kind of carbonation you should get.

(The chart shows "Volumes of CO2", for now just be aware that 1 volume is not fizzy, 2 to 2.5 is typical for most beer, some beers go up to 4, soda and seltzers are often 5 or more)

But if your fermentation IS finished, there's no source of CO2. Flat beer is the expected result. So what one does is add a small amount of sugar* and possibly some additional yeast. Usually yeast isn't needed, because there's (usually) still a ton in the fermenter. The sugar gets fermented, creating CO2, and, well, see "not complete" above...

* Sugar can be many things, not just table sugar. There's even a calculator to say how must of (whatever) to use! Instead, though,see this tutorial.

OK, on to your second issue: Bubbles. If you see bubbles coming from ANY PART of a 'sealed' container, it is leaking. If it leaks, you get no carbonation. If it's bubbling from a spot that seems like it should be air-tight, there is a fault. e.g., your weld. Call the manufacturer or seller, offer to send them a photo. Excellent chances they'll mail you a new one ASAP. Most companies are like that.

Ah, but now what? If the beer can't carbonate because of a leak, what to do? I can't say, definitively, but some of the possibilities include fixing the leak, finding another pressure vessel (a keg, maybe bottles), finding someone local to come to the rescue (most homebrewers are friendly folk), or visiting a brewing supply store to buy an option. (For test batches, I use 2 liter soda bottles, a CO2 tank, and one of these.

Don't despair though: If you can keep your (uncarbonated) beer cold, it will last a week or two as it is, and by then you should have a way to hold pressure, thus resulting in carbonated beer.

Best of luck, and please keep us informed of what happens!!

 

[GFHomebrew]

Try undoing then re tightening the PRV.
Add some pressure to the vessal grab some starsan - spray around the prv and the lid. You dont want to see any bubbles whatsoever that's a gas leak.
If its leaking from the weld at PRV get that phone and start taking happy snaps or video send it to your supplier as evidence your kegmenter is a dud and they should provide you a new one.

I've had issue before with kegland they said get a short vid of the issue email us and once I did that they sent a replacement.
Cheers happy brewing

 

[Eponymous]

Co2 is Getting out or fermentation was complete. In order to spund you have to know where you are gravity wise and what you should end up with. 8-10 points left it will work if sealed. You won’t kill the yeast if you use pressure from the beginning. You don’t need sugar if you have gravity points left.

For lagers I put mine on at the start or once Fermentation starts. I set it 10-15 psi and then close it with a few points left. For ales I let it ferment a day Or 2 then Put on my spunding valve set at 15 psi. Psi will depend on temp and carbonation level desired. You don’t have to pressure ferment like this but if you have gravity points left you can get carbonation from the co2 being produced.

if you are carbonating with sugar add when fermentation is complete

Thanks for that Josh, I’ll try adding sugar in about a week or so.

 

[Eponymous]

If you have bubbles coming out where the PRV is (you said at the weld) then you won't be able to pressurize it
It HAS to be air tight

Thanks Minibari, I think that confirms my worry.

 

[Eponymous]

Hello, and welcome!

Can you carbonate this way? Yes and no. Maybe.

Of course, to add CO2 to a water-based liquid, you increase its pressure above atmospheric and some of the CO2 dissolves in the liquid. Exactly how much dissolves determines the level of fizz, and that depends on both the CO2 pressure and the liquid temperature. There is a chart showing this relationship.

So if your fermentation was NOT complete, the yeast is still making CO2. If you let this CO2 build up, it will be at a certain pressure (whatever your spunding valve is set to) and a certain temperature. Use the chart to see what kind of carbonation you should get.

(The chart shows "Volumes of CO2", for now just be aware that 1 volume is not fizzy, 2 to 2.5 is typical for most beer, some beers go up to 4, soda and seltzers are often 5 or more)

But if your fermentation IS finished, there's no source of CO2. Flat beer is the expected result. So what one does is add a small amount of sugar* and possibly some additional yeast. Usually yeast isn't needed, because there's (usually) still a ton in the fermenter. The sugar gets fermented, creating CO2, and, well, see "not complete" above...

* Sugar can be many things, not just table sugar. There's even a calculator to say how must of (whatever) to use! Instead, though,see this tutorial.

OK, on to your second issue: Bubbles. If you see bubbles coming from ANY PART of a 'sealed' container, it is leaking. If it leaks, you get no carbonation. If it's bubbling from a spot that seems like it should be air-tight, there is a fault. e.g., your weld. Call the manufacturer or seller, offer to send them a photo. Excellent chances they'll mail you a new one ASAP. Most companies are like that.

Ah, but now what? If the beer can't carbonate because of a leak, what to do? I can't say, definitively, but some of the possibilities include fixing the leak, finding another pressure vessel (a keg, maybe bottles), finding someone local to come to the rescue (most homebrewers are friendly folk), or visiting a brewing supply store to buy an option. (For test batches, I use 2 liter soda bottles, a CO2 tank, and one of these.

Don't despair though: If you can keep your (uncarbonated) beer cold, it will last a week or two as it is, and by then you should have a way to hold pressure, thus resulting in carbonated beer.

Best of luck, and please keep us informed of what happens!!

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I think customer service in your part of the world is probably better than in mine. Would I be foolish to try welding it myself? Home brewers are thin on the ground around here and stores are not nearby.

 

[Minbari]

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I think customer service in your part of the world is probably better than in mine. Would I be foolish to try welding it myself? Home brewers are thin on the ground around here and stores are not nearby.

If you are handy you could.

I would honestly get some jb weld and epoxy it. Tiny bubbles arent going to blow it out and it will seal it right up

 

[Eponymous]

Try undoing then re tightening the PRV.
Add some pressure to the vessal grab some starsan - spray around the prv and the lid. You dont want to see any bubbles whatsoever that's a gas leak.
If its leaking from the weld at PRV get that phone and start taking happy snaps or video send it to your supplier as evidence your kegmenter is a dud and they should provide you a new one.

I've had issue before with kegland they said get a short vid of the issue email us and once I did that they sent a replacement.
Cheers happy brewing

That sounds like a good idea. My only problem is that I don’t have any way of adding pressure. If I do return the pressure kit they will charge me for postage in returning the old one and I’m sure it won’t be cheap due to the weight. Many thanks for your help.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I cant solve your problem but this is what I have

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I think customer service in your part of the world is probably better than in mine. Would I be foolish to try welding it myself? Home brewers are thin on the ground around here and stores are not nearby.

@Eponymous, what part of the world are you located in?
If it arrived broken I would hope they would replace it, or at the very least replace the broken part. It wouldn't hurt to ask.

 

[GFHomebrew]

That sounds like a good idea. My only problem is that I don’t have any way of adding pressure. If I do return the pressure kit they will charge me for postage in returning the old one and I’m sure it won’t be cheap due to the weight. Many thanks for your help.

If you cant add pressure than a pressure fermentor is probably not the right choice for you at this stage homebrewing.
You will need an inert gas to push the beer out of the kegmenter unless you use a syphon of some sort (which defeats the purpose of the closed system).
You can add pressure in one way creating a starter and using the kegmenter to ferment it.
Dont add any spunding valve to it. It will build up ample pressure for you to test for leaks.

Remember Always release pressure before taking the TRI ClAmP off.

 

[Minbari]

If you cant add pressure than a pressure fermentor is probably not the right choice for you at this stage homebrewing.
You will need an inert gas to push the beer out of the kegmenter unless you use a syphon of some sort (which defeats the purpose of the closed system).
You can add pressure in one way creating a starter and using the kegmenter to ferment it.
Dont add any spunding valve to it. It will build up ample pressure for you to test for leaks.

Remember Always release pressure before taking the TRI ClAmP off.

Now he tells me!

 

[Eponymous]

Once again thanks everyone for the overwhelming response.

So despite my lack of faith in customer service here in the south of Sweden, I decided that responsibility for the pressure kit first and foremost was with the brew store. So I took a short film of the bubbles coming through the weld as suggested and sent it to the store. To my surprise they mailed me a new one and you could have knocked me over with a hop sock when they paid for the postage to return the old one.

With my faith in customer service restored, it gave me the opportunity to compare the two pressure kits and it was quite clear that the original had not been welded sufficiently. When I cleaned the kegmenter with PBW and put the new pressure lid on I was able to pull the PRV and it made a very satisfying hissing sound. Something it had never done before.

I now have an oaked vanilla milk porter in the keg and until I expand my repertoire I’m unable to force carbonate. So when fermentation is complete I intend to add sugar and see if I can get some use out this spunding valve. If anyone has any advice or tips concerning that - then I’m all ears!

 

[Donoroto]

then I’m all ears!

Ha! My friends tell me that I'm all mouth...