Problems with bitterness, flavor and aroma on a NZ Pils.

[K.O.brew]

Good evening.

Long story short, i brewed a NZ pils (recipe by yours truly). Pilsner malt with some carapils and Vienna, thirty minute boil, two additions of 25 grams each Rakau, Wai-iti and Waimea at fifteen and five minutes. No chilled, pitched a big starter of 34/70 when the temperature reached 20C and fermented with temp control (for the first time) at roughly 19C.
Racked to secondary, cold crashed, fined with gelatin and then bottled.

After three weeks of waiting the beer was finally ready to drink. While OG-FG were spot on and saflager did its job fermenting exquisitely, the beer was not as crisp/ bright as i would hope it to be, it was definitely not bitter (3 to 1 Sulfates to Chloride from water adjustment) while the recipe calculator on the site puts it at sixty IBU, and maybe worse than the aforementioned, the aroma and taste were pretty bland, compared to what i had in mind.

Was i wrong to expect a really hop forward tasty crisp beer by those additions and times? Is aroma/flavor addition IBU calculated in some different way, thus making it less bitter than expected? Did oxidation ruin this batch?

The beer does have some fruity/sweet aroma and taste but extremely subdued to what i had in mind, still crushable though.

Any idea as to what happened, or if my expectations were off are welcome.

 

[Sandy Feet]

For a lager to get crisp, it needs to..drum roll please.. lager. Mine will start getting that way, maybe starting the second week in the keg at 30 something F. About the 4th week in the keg, it gets better and better.
A lager takes patience, just as a Belgian beer does.
I have not used 34/70 at those temperatures. That could be the fruity. I start at around 55F until low krausen, ramp up to around 62F for the D Rest, and let it ride there until it is done. You don't need a secondary fermentation unless you are adding something else or are maybe going high alcohol. Ferment it, and either bottle it or keg it. Period.
20C is 68F. 68 is usually where I ferment ales, not lagers. 19C would be about where I would ferment an English Ale yeast.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

The first question is, what was the pitch pH?
Second question, what was the grain bill and hops?
Third question, what was the pitch rate?

34/70 is very crisp, but if the pitch pH is above 5.2, it can get flabby. The yeast will pull down the finish pH to @ 4.3, but it requires a pitch pH of 5-5.2. Yeast is quite remarkable, it will find it's own finish pH provided it doesn't have to start too high.

Grain bills can have too much of one thing or another that cause a poor outcome.

Pitch rate is related to pH. If the yeast is struggling to ferment, it will struggle to drop the pH.

Lager will meld the flavors and it should very crisp from the onset due to the yeast in suspension. Lager can help, but it should taste good without a long lagering period. Think Keller Bier (German for celler beer, a very fresh lager).

 

[Sandy Feet]

The first question is, what was the pitch pH?
Second question, what was the grain bill and hops?
Third question, what was the pitch rate?

34/70 is very crisp, but if the pitch pH is above 5.2, it can get flabby. The yeast will pull down the finish pH to @ 4.3, but it requires a pitch pH of 5-5.2. Yeast is quite remarkable, it will find it's own finish pH provided it doesn't have to start too high.

Grain bills can have too much of one thing or another that cause a poor outcome.

Pitch rate is related to pH. If the yeast is struggling to ferment, it will struggle to drop the pH.

Lager will meld the flavors and it should very crisp from the onset due to the yeast in suspension. Lager can help, but it should taste good without a long lagering period. Think Keller Bier (German for celler beer, a very fresh lager).

Won't disagree with anything, but the improvement and the crispness, at least in my case and with my pallet, is noticeable over a few weeks. Give the thing some time and see what happens. If nothing else, you learned something. More likely than not, you will have a better beer.

 

[Brewer #437123]

Hey Gus,
Sounds like you’ve got a good recipe going, but a few things might be affecting how it turned out. The temp you fermented at (19-20°C) is a bit on the high side for 34/70. That could be why you’re getting those fruity/sweet notes. 34/70 is cleaner when fermented cooler, more like 10-12°C, so that might help get you closer to the crisp lager taste you wanted. You could also start cool and then raise the temp for the diacetyl rest at the end of fermentation.
As for the bitterness, late hop additions at 15 and 5 minutes usually add more flavor and aroma than bitterness. So even though your calculator said 60 IBU, the hops probably didn’t give you the bitterness punch you expected. Adding hops earlier, like at 60 minutes, might give you that extra bitterness you're after.
Also, with lagers, letting it sit and lager for a bit longer could help with the crispness and clarity. Sometimes it just takes some time for the flavors to fully come together.
I don’t think oxidation is the issue here unless you’re getting cardboard-like flavors. It sounds more like a fermentation temp thing or just needing more time to lager.
Give it some time and maybe tweak those hop timings and fermentation temps next time. You’re definitely on the right track!

 

[Over The Cliff Brewing]

I believe by changing your hop schedule should produce what you are after. Bitterness comes from the hot side additions with some aroma and flavor You will increase the aroma and flavor more with the whirlpool addition at 180F or below and the dry hop additions. Again, this all depends on what your end goal is and the hops you are using to get there. Keep working it and hang in there.

 

[K.O.brew]

Thank you all for your replies.

I will brew a comparable beer soon so i will try to go full ham on a 30 minute bittering addition to see how that affects the beer.

Patience is not a virtue of mine, so i tried the beer just as it fully conditioned and carbonated in the bottle, i will definitely lager some bottles for a month or two to see how that changes the beer.

I will also try to ferment cooler. I have fermented with the same strain again at comparable temps and have had pretty clean results, but fermenting low will make for less variables when it comes to aroma/flavor.

Last, probably not least though, i did not measure or take into account PH, i know that in general it impacts every aspect of the beer but i have access to PH strips only, so i rarely use them. Will try to use them more often, and invest on a meter when possible. I ill also have to look more into how it impacts the process.

 

[Sandy Feet]

If you are going to use a lager yeast, you will be much better off kegging. You can bottle doing that, but it likely won't get the best results with the sediment,
If you want a light, hoppy beer, and you are bottling, try an ale yeast S-05 is also dry and easy, and it ferments great around 20C . It won't be lager crisp, but if you use 2 row, you will get a little bit, especially if you give it an extra week or two cold crashing. If you are going to enjoy your end product, you need to learn some patience.

 

[Minbari]

Thank you all for your replies.

I will brew a comparable beer soon so i will try to go full ham on a 30 minute bittering addition to see how that affects the beer.

Patience is not a virtue of mine, so i tried the beer just as it fully conditioned and carbonated in the bottle, i will definitely lager some bottles for a month or two to see how that changes the beer.

I will also try to ferment cooler. I have fermented with the same strain again at comparable temps and have had pretty clean results, but fermenting low will make for less variables when it comes to aroma/flavor.

Last, probably not least though, i did not measure or take into account PH, i know that in general it impacts every aspect of the beer but i have access to PH strips only, so i rarely use them. Will try to use them more often, and invest on a meter when possible. I ill also have to look more into how it impacts the process.

meters are not very expensive these days. trick is taking care of them or they will go way out of calibration pretty fast.

do NOT get this type. it will go right into the garbage!

https://www.amazon.com/VIVOSUN-Mete...ag=se&keywords=ph+meter&qid=1726237774&sr=8-3

I have this one, had it for years. works very well. just remember, dont turn it on unless it is submerged and turn it off before you remove it. this will make the measument bulb last much longer. also buy the storage solution. it lasts years and will store the bulb in the correct ph. the bulb MUST always be left wet, dont let it dry.

https://www.amazon.com/VIVOSUN-Digi...g=se&keywords=ph+meter&qid=1726237774&sr=8-18

https://www.amazon.com/KCL-Storage-...38418&sprefix=ph+meter+storage,aps,178&sr=8-3