OG for wort with honey added to the fermenter

[Walken100]

Ok, I originally a the recipe with honey as a late addition. The OG calculated was 1.061. But we decided to add the honey post boil at a temp of ~70degs F. When you rerun the recipe with the honey added to the fermenter the OG calculates at 1.055 (honey not considered). My measured OG (using a Tilt) of the wort in the fermenter, after adding the honey and stirring vigorously, was 1.061.

The questions are.... was this all coincidence or in the future should I use the late boil addition to calculate my OG and then move the honey to a fermenter addition to be able to establish what my wort should be post boil (and my water levels)? Am i correct to use the 1.061 when calculating ABV?

IE two recipes to make one beer.

Thanks in advance for any advice...

Bart

PS. I saw a similar, old, post that was going after water level info but decided not to add to an old post.

 

[Megary]

If I understand you correctly…the OG should be registered as 1.061 for ABV purposes. This is true regardless whether you added the honey to the boil or to the fermenter. It makes no difference.

I am curious if you took a gravity reading post boil, but pre honey addition. If you did it should have been about 1.055.

 

[Walken100]

If I understand you correctly…the OG should be registered as 1.061 for ABV purposes. This is true regardless whether you added the honey to the boil or to the fermenter. It makes no difference.

I am curious if you took a gravity reading post boil, but pre honey addition. If you did it should have been about 1.055.

1.056. close enough for beer

 

[Steve SPF]

What @Megary said really, just with the added thought that I would be far more inclined towards adding it as a late boil addition rather than into the fermenter. As a boil addition the OG can be measured accurately and there's less risk of adding unwanted nasties

 

[Walken100]

What @Megary said really, just with the added thought that

I actually followed my mead making approach (adding honey cooler) for the first half of the batch . For the other half the honey went in much hotter wort. I'm trying to recreate a recipe that was wonderful but poorly documented. Long story short I'm making big changes to be able to see an effect, if there is one.

 

[Donoroto]

I actually followed my mead making approach (adding honey cooler) for the first half of the batch . For the other half the honey went in much hotter wort. I'm trying to recreate a recipe that was wonderful but poorly documented. Long story short I'm making big changes to be able to see an effect, if there is one.

For the recipe builder, it makes sense to use the process that more accurately predicts OG. But for process, it makes little difference between late boil and after, although a little more honey flavor could survive better when added cooler.

Of course, your goal is to figure out what was done some time ago, so think like a drunk and try 'odd' variations while keeping better notes.

 

[Walken100]

For the recipe builder, it makes sense to use the process that more accurately predicts OG. But for process, it makes little difference between late boil and after, although a little more"

More honey flavor is one of the goals. We think there was a delay in adding the honey as apposed to a ten minute boil that was called for in the recipe.

I agree but having the 2nd version is nice do that I know what my post boil gravity is supposed to be.

Regarding thinking like a drunk I'll have to go back to my college days..... But I'm up to it

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

Honey is notoriously difficult to mix, if I was adding post-boil then I would take a gravity sample before the honey and adjust the recipe efficiency or postboil volume to get the OG to match, then add the honey in as a late addition = kettle so you know what the 'real' OG and ABV is. Right now late additions = fermenter don't contribute to the OG as it's intended to be added during fermentation and not on brew day.

 

[Sandy Feet]

If I do honey again, it would be very late in the boil. I tried doing it at flameout, and even with stirring everything up in the kettle, it sank to the bottom, and very little made it into the fermenter.

 

[Walken100]

Honey is notoriously difficult to mix,.

I did the recipe both ways, one with the Honey as a late boil kettle addition and one with Honey as a fermenter addition. The "og" without honey was 1.056 vs 1.055 as predicted from brewers friend. The "og" with honey was 1.061 vs 1.061 as from brewers friend. The Fg looks to be 1.013 vs 1.013 from brewers friend (the version with honey in the fermenter). For information's sake the Fg as predicted by the version with honey added to the brew kettle was 1.014.

This just leaves the issue of calculating ABV, which feels like a "hole" in the program. Not one that is hard to get around however. 6.1% (honey in boil) vs 5.5% (honey in fermenter). I'm using the 6.1 for my educated guess. feels a little low but....

Everything was really close, in fact as my first brew with my recipe in brewers friend I'm very pleased. Ok, a sample size of one but I'll take it.

Regarding getting honey to mix I suspect that this is more of a time thing than a mix. Mead takes time and I suspect part of that is because of stratification. This beer will sit for a few months before 1st tasting as the original recipe did. We did have a problem with the honey settling into the collection jar of my conical but we just closed the valve and returned the honey. The valve was opened after a couple days with no apparent stratification. Time will tell.....

Thanks for the info and the program.

 

[Walken100]

If I do honey again, it would be very late in the boil. I tried doing it at flameout, and even with stirring everything up in the kettle, it sank to the bottom, and very little made it into the fermenter.

We had some settling but after a couple of days it appeared that all was well in the fermenter. We will see.

 

[Zambi]

I'm wondering:
Could you maybe mix the honey with a little warm or hot water, stir like crazy, or maybe use a mixer and then add?
I've not yet used honey on brewing, so it's just a thought

 

[Sandy Feet]

It is very heavy in liquid. I had it warm, so it would be easy to pour. I thought I was smart with the flameout idea. I wasn't.
Many people add it post boil, so they don't lose the flavor. I'm thinking it might incorporate in the boil if you give it five or ten minutes, but that is an idea for another day.

 

[Walken100]

I'm wondering:
Could you maybe mix the honey with a little warm or hot water, stir like crazy, or maybe use a mixer and then add?
I've not yet used honey on brewing, so it's just a thought

I've done both, in this case I didn't have to get every drop of honey out of the jar so I just squeezed it in and then aeriated the crap out of it with a drill and paddle! Again I need to see results before I can say this works but I've made really good mead and it is essentially the same process.

 

[Walken100]

It is very heavy in liquid. I had it warm, so it would be easy to pour. I thought I was smart with the flameout idea. I wasn't.
Many people add it post boil, so they don't lose the flavor. I'm thinking it might incorporate in the boil if you give it five or ten minutes, but that is an idea for another day.

Either way should work. Adding to wort in the fermenter is basically a mead process. There is lots of information on the changes to honey if you boil it. I haven't been able to find any good info on the impact on taste (lots of opinions but no tests) so that is why I'm testing. We previously added to the boil but didn't get the result we wanted. This time 1/2 the batch got honey in the fermenter and 1/2 got it after flameout in the kettle. We will do a taste test in a couple of months.

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

Either way should work. Adding to wort in the fermenter is basically a mead process. There is lots of information on the changes to honey if you boil it. I haven't been able to find any good info on the impact on taste (lots of opinions but no tests) so that is why I'm testing. We previously added to the boil but didn't get the result we wanted. This time 1/2 the batch got honey in the fermenter and 1/2 got it after flameout in the kettle. We will do a taste test in a couple of months.

Some honey flavor compounds are more volatile then others, but if you want more honey flavor in general, you want it to be below 180F or so. Treat it like a whirlpool addition imo, but I would definitely recommend that you mix it with some cooled wort and add it to the fermenter instead of straight up into the fermenter.

Or add it after some time of fermentation has occurred so you get healthy and less stressed yeast, but that's really more of a concern for stronger beers and lots of simple sugars and shouldn't be an issue going from 1.055 to 1.061ish.

 

[Walken100]

Some honey flavor compounds are more volatile then others, but if you want more honey flavor in general, you want it to be below 180F or so. Treat it like a whirlpool addition imo, but I would definitely recommend that you mix it with some cooled wort and add it to the fermenter instead of straight up into the fermenter.

Or add it after some time of fermentation has occurred so you get healthy and less stressed yeast, but that's really more of a concern for stronger beers and lots of simple sugars and shouldn't be an issue going from 1.055 to 1.061ish.

Honestly I believe that number (or at least a number between 160 and 180) and have for a while but I can't find any supporting data on it. But I've also read numbers from 80 degrees up. Basically I can find articles that tout any number I want on the internet. I haven't found any supporting data. Sorry I'm a wee bit anal about data.

Do you have a link that takes me to the testing that determined that? If you don't have it please don't feel the need to do research for me I'm just really curious.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Here's my .2c worth in regards to honey.

Recently i brewed 2 ginger beers one with 3kg of "winter honey" (work mate said it was not the best grade it was half crystallised).

The other was with cane sugar some of it was inverted - home made candy sugar.

I actually perceived honey aroma and some honey sweetness in the ginger beer with 3kg honey.
I brewed the next batch with cane sugar (lower abv btw) I could make an educated guess on it if anything was contributed by the honey as opposed to cane sucrose addition.

So I've come to believe it's a sheer volume thing.

Most honey additions I've done in the past have been much less and I didn't perceive any honey notes from them.

I've always herd the stigma "your wasting your money adding honey it'll just dry out the beer and leave no flavour aroma".

Maybe this is true at 10% of the fermentables but the one batch I used 100% yeah it's there and it tastes kinda like a mead kinda like a beer at 6%.

Cheers thought I'd weigh in take with a grain of salt.