Mash pH when capping the mash

[Craigerrr]

Hoping to get some thoughts on mash pH.
I am brewing a Black IPA, or Cascadian Dark Ale. In order to get the thin crisp mouth feel of a west coast style IPA I am adding dehusked carafe malt at the end of the mash. I have given them zero ppg in the recipe. I hadn't noticed this before but the water calculator in the software I use is suggesting baking soda to raise pH. Conversion will have been long completed before I add the dark malts to the mash.

I am thinking that I should remove the dark malt from the recipe to calculate my salt additions as that is all that will be present during the mash.
Make sense?

Should I add a gram or so of baking soda with the dark malts at the end of the mash just to keep the finished beer pH on target?

 

[Josh Hughes]

Is it dropping it too low or just lower than you want?

 

[Craigerrr]

Sorry, my question is a little vague.

The scenario:
I use RO water and add Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, Epsom Salt, Pickling Salt, and if needed Baking Soda to get the water profile I am looking for.
When brewing a light colored beer I will add acidulated malt to buffer the pH to 5.4.
When brewing a dark beer, the dark malts lower pH pretty significantly, so typically don't use any acidulated malt, and need Baking Soda to get the pH up to 5.4.
With the Black IPA, I am not adding the dark malts until late in the mash, so the grist that is mashing is truly a light color grain bill. By the time I add the dark malts all of the conversion will have taken place. The reason for adding the dark grains late is so that they only impart color, and some of the flavors, but not the "thickness" that would result if they were in the mash for the full duration.
I have manipulated the software to not include these dark malts in the mash pH calculations.

The question
Should I, or would you add the baking soda that the calculator estimated with the dark malts, or just not bother with it at all?

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

The mash pH is important for conversion. Usually measured at room temperature.

I usually want to see a pH of 5.4-5.6 during the mash for better extraction. The boil pH usually needs to be adjusted to 5.1-5.2 on lighter beers or 5.2-5.3 for darker beers. The pH can drop even lower for the yeast pitch, but I never want it to go below 5.0. The lighter beers (including IPA) usually turn out best with a pitch pH of 5.05-5.1. Darker beers are better slightly higher.

The reason I bring this up is because I think way too many brewers focus on mash pH and then ignore pH afterward. Each stage of brewing requires a different pH. The sweet spot for mash pH is 5.4-5.6 at room temperature regardless the color, you're basically targeting the enzymes during the mash. If the mash pH drops to 5.2 during the mash, I just leave it. The worst thing that happens is my conversion efficiency drops. As you sparge the pH will rise, even with RO water, so I acidify the sparge liquor to keep the pH in check during the sparge. Then I check the boil pH and adjust if necessary, I never like to adjust pH up because it is nearly impossible at this point without using baking soda. The pH change slightly in the boil, most people see it drop, but I'm a outlier because mine will rise ever so slightly during the boil. If you find your pH is too low for the boil, it best to leave it and use a more alkaline sparge water next time if it's available to you.

I stopped using acidulated malt years ago and switched to 85% phosphoric acid. 88% lactic acid works too. This makes it easier to adjust pH at different stages in the brewing process. The key is always to adjust down if possible. It's a different way of looking at pH, but it works really well. I also never use water calculators to predict mash pH.

BTW. I followed your advice you gave a few years ago about wet milling. That helped my mash flow tremendously and I wet mill every beer. Thank you!

 

[The Brew Mentor]

@HighVoltageMan!
At the shop, we cap the mash on the Black IPA and the Irish Stout and don't see a reason to raise the PH after.
I really feel like the converted mash buffers the resulting wort.
Note that our sparge water is @ 5.4pH. I guess you could leave the acid out of that, but so many variables!
As long as you figure your mash out without the capping grains, I'd run it and then check the boil pH. Worst you have to do is add a little calcium carbonate if your too low.
Cheers,
Brian

 

[Craigerrr]

The mash pH is important for conversion. Usually measured at room temperature.

I usually want to see a pH of 5.4-5.6 during the mash for better extraction. The boil pH usually needs to be adjusted to 5.1-5.2 on lighter beers or 5.2-5.3 for darker beers. The pH can drop even lower for the yeast pitch, but I never want it to go below 5.0. The lighter beers (including IPA) usually turn out best with a pitch pH of 5.05-5.1. Darker beers are better slightly higher.

The reason I bring this up is because I think way too many brewers focus on mash pH and then ignore pH afterward. Each stage of brewing requires a different pH. The sweet spot for mash pH is 5.4-5.6 at room temperature regardless the color, you're basically targeting the enzymes during the mash. If the mash pH drops to 5.2 during the mash, I just leave it. The worst thing that happens is my conversion efficiency drops. As you sparge the pH will rise, even with RO water, so I acidify the sparge liquor to keep the pH in check during the sparge. Then I check the boil pH and adjust if necessary, I never like to adjust pH up because it is nearly impossible at this point without using baking soda. The pH change slightly in the boil, most people see it drop, but I'm a outlier because mine will rise ever so slightly during the boil. If you find your pH is too low for the boil, it best to leave it and use a more alkaline sparge water next time if it's available to you.

I stopped using acidulated malt years ago and switched to 85% phosphoric acid. 88% lactic acid works too. This makes it easier to adjust pH at different stages in the brewing process. The key is always to adjust down if possible. It's a different way of looking at pH, but it works really well. I also never use water calculators to predict mash pH.

BTW. I followed your advice you gave a few years ago about wet milling. That helped my mash flow tremendously and I wet mill every beer. Thank you!

This is all theoretical for me, I am not measuring pH, I am basing everything on the Brewfather software predictions.
So yeah, I am only really concerning myself with mash pH
I started using acidulated malt as I too often forgot to add the lactic acid.
I am getting great results in general with my current method, can't justify spending $200 on a good pH meter.
After throwing out a cheapy $20 meter, and a supposedly higher quality $80 meter I decided to just go with trusting the software.

Re wet conditioning your grains, glad that helped!

 

[Craigerrr]

@HighVoltageMan!
At the shop, we cap the mash on the Black IPA and the Irish Stout and don't see a reason to raise the PH after.
I really feel like the converted mash buffers the resulting wort.
Note that our sparge water is @ 5.4pH. I guess you could leave the acid out of that, but so many variables!
As long as you figure your mash out without the capping grains, I'd run it and then check the boil pH. Worst you have to do is add a little calcium carbonate if your too low.
Cheers,
Brian

Thanks Brian
I did go with the mash pH not including the dehusked carafa, and did not add anything after that.
The BRY-97 is chugging away with a very high krausen right now at 19C and under 10 PSI.
Will likely add the dry hop addition on Sunday, depending on how quickly fermentation goes.
We'll see how it turns out in another week or so.

 

[Donoroto]

I think that adding baking soda isn’t addressing your concern. Leave it out, since the ‘acidic dark malt’ is not introduced until after conversion. My 0.02