Lager yeast overpitch - off flavor?

[J A]

The Bo Pils I brewed a few weeks ago is starting to clean up (after much more time than usual). I over pitched the yeast because I calculated differently than I have in the past. The yeast is old but has been in the fridge. It was sealed but the food-sealer bag lost its mojo and wasn't holding vacuum any more. I had used it for an Amber lager that seemed to ferment okay so I figured, I'd hedge and pitch big just in case.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1543623/bohemian-lifestyle

Fermentation was fine and it was at GF on day 7. Not out of the ordinary. I crashed for almost 2 weeks in the Unitank and it seemed to be taking its time to clear up. I usually get a good idea of the flavor after a week of crashing but it was still pretty muddled with odd flavors. Even after I got it in a keg with Bio-fine and it started to clear a little it still wasn't anything near what I would expect. The flavor definitely had a fruity funk and even a light clove-y note that I associate with Belgian yeasts. I feared that the yeast was somehow contaminated or compromised and throwing off flavors.

But...After being in the keg for 10 days it seems like it's starting to be a real beer. The yeast notes have largely cleared and the malt is starting to assert itself a little. The hop profile lacks some flavor but I decided to risk using some old hops and that's another story. My conclusion is that by using essentially a double pitch, I created a yeast colony that didn't have enough to do. There were too many cells present and looking for something to eat. The result was a beer that seemed a little flaccid and heavy with yeast flavor that didn't want to fade.

Anyone else had experience with a massive pitch that just didn't work out?

 

[Sandy Feet]

I pitch high, and I like what I get. My last German beer was 5 gallons. I pitched 4 packets of 34/70. I fermented for 14 days in basically the 50s. I let it sit in the keg for a week before I took samples. It wasn't quite there yet. After the 2nd week in the keg, it was VERY clean. Not clear, but it tasted very clean. Even some of the pros told me that.
I use the White Labs Pure Pitch for my ales too which is basically a double pitch. I double pitch about everything, but I haven't done a Hefe yet.

 

[dmtaylor]

If your dry yeast was already opened and getting old, it might not be all that viable anymore, and perhaps your "overpitch" was actually an underpitch, leading to a little contamination by something else (Belgian or German ale, or wild). I've noticed recently when I've used older fridge-stored dry yeast packets that had been opened and no longer vacuum sealed, the dry yeast doesn't last forever in those conditions but starts to fade away after a couple years after opening. Do you know how long ago your pack was opened or leaking? So anyway... I don't know about "overpitch", I'm thinking more likely underpitch and a little contamination, if your results aren't as clean as you'd expected.

 

[J A]

If your dry yeast was already opened and getting old, it might not be all that viable anymore, and perhaps your "overpitch" was actually an underpitch, leading to a little contamination by something else (Belgian or German ale, or wild). I've noticed recently when I've used older fridge-stored dry yeast packets that had been opened and no longer vacuum sealed, the dry yeast doesn't last forever in those conditions but starts to fade away after a couple years after opening. Do you know how long ago your pack was opened or leaking? So anyway... I don't know about "overpitch", I'm thinking more likely underpitch and a little contamination, if your results aren't as clean as you'd expected.

Definitely a possibility. Another time when I know that I overpitched substantially I got a beer that seemed off. Not bad in terms of flavor but not balanced and with an unpleasant quality.
The yeast in question has been in the fridge for several years. There's no telling when the O2 started getting in. I did a sample starter to check for viability and it worked fine. I used it in a more typical pitch rate for my recent Amber Lager and it fermented quite well. I skipped the Bio-fine on that beer so it took much longer to clear.
Since it looks like the Pils is cleaning up reasonably well and it's only been in the keg for 10 days, I'll probably give the Apex another try at my normal pitch rate and see what happens.
Another data point...I had an open brick of Mauribrew 497 in the fridge for just as long but it stayed sealed in its vacuum bag. I just pitched it on an American Amber (standard pitch rate) and it's plowing through the fermentables. I'll be taking a sample of that one tomorrow or so and I'll get an idea of how it's doing in terms of yeast expression.

 

[Bigbre04]

O2 and time degraded the yeast. likely the off flavors were caused by an actual under pitch and the subsequent yeast stress.

 

[Dave Y]

I’ve had lagering fix an off flavor in a red, rye beer I did last year. At cold crash it had kind of an acrid aftertaste- I almost dumped it. At that point I had nothing to lose so I kept it cold for about a month. It did mellow out to where only a hint was perceivable.

This was a mangrove jack bohemian lager with a starter.

I’m not sure about over pitching causing an off flavor. If you repitch the culture gets stronger for several generations; I’ve heard 3-5 and by 8-9 would be trailing off. The most I’ve pitched is 3 on the same batch, but I’m going to try a 4th hopefully soon. Half of my Märzens get repitched yeast, and I’ve definitely seen stronger, faster fermentation on 2nd and subsequent pitches

 

[J A]

O2 and time degraded the yeast. likely the off flavors were caused by an actual under pitch and the subsequent yeast stress.

I've thought about that but the Amber Lager with a regular pitch fermented perfectly (though with a little strong flavor that eventually cleared). It probably wouldn't work well at all at a regular pitch rate if twice the pitch was a low enough cell count to cause stress and off flavors.

Since the Apex is at a good price now, I'll just replace it and not worry. I think the stuff I have is still pretty viable but could easily be compromised. Better to cut my losses.

 

[Bigbre04]

I've thought about that but the Amber Lager with a regular pitch fermented perfectly (though with a little strong flavor that eventually cleared). It probably wouldn't work well at all at a regular pitch rate if twice the pitch was a low enough cell count to cause stress and off flavors.

Since the Apex is at a good price now, I'll just replace it and not worry. I think the stuff I have is still pretty viable but could easily be compromised. Better to cut my losses.

lagering helps with a lot of off flavors! the amber may have covered the off flavors up more. too many variables to know for sure!

 

[J A]

lagering helps with a lot of off flavors! the amber may have covered the off flavors up more. too many variables to know for sure!

I just ordered a couple of bricks. They'll probably last me another several years.
I decided to try the Berlin Lager rather than the Munich. It's equivalent to the S-23 and I've always used more of that, anyway. It's fine for German styles, though not necessarily as good as the 34/70 strain and it works really well for adjunct lagers and Cream Ale.

 

[Bigbre04]

I just ordered a couple of bricks. They'll probably last me another several years.
I decided to try the Berlin Lager rather than the Munich. It's equivalent to the S-23 and I've always used more of that, anyway. It's fine for German styles, though not necessarily as good as the 34/70 strain and it works really well for adjunct lagers and Cream Ale.

i didnt love berlin lager compared to munich. Munich is SUPER versatile and clean

 

[J A]

i didnt love berlin lager compared to munich. Munich is SUPER versatile and clean

I figure that the brick is about the same cost as pitching a couple of big batches with Fermentis packets so it's worth trying. Also, I may not have to completely toss out the Munich. I'll give it a go in a smaller batch of light lager and see if it behaves reasonably well. If the Berlin isn't to my liking and the Munich continues to give me trouble, I can toss it and get a new brick of it.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I figure that the brick is about the same cost as pitching a couple of big batches with Fermentis packets so it's worth trying. Also, I may not have to completely toss out the Munich. I'll give it a go in a smaller batch of light lager and see if it behaves reasonably well. If the Berlin isn't to my liking and the Munich continues to give me trouble, I can toss it and get a new brick of it.

34/70 ain't cheap pitching big.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Anyone else had experience with a massive pitch that just didn't work out?

I don't store opened dry yeast, I know people do it successfully, but I don't to add any more possible problems to the brew.

That aside, I have over pitched 34/70 in the past. I ended up with a 'red rose" aroma that never faded. It turns out the be an ester that lager yeast can produce, but it's a little odd to be honest. I've learned that manufacturer's pitch rates are recommended for a reason. I pitch slightly higher than that and it turns out every time. I often think that 34/70 is really good even with a slight under pitch. I've under pitched a couple of times with it and the beer just turns out. 34/70 is one of the most forgiving yeasts out there.

As a side note, I brewed an American Lager @ 6 weeks ago with 34/70. I didn't like it all at first, it was estery and had a touch of weird sulfur/malt character, but after a over a month of lagering, it turned out really good. Maybe time is your best friend at this point.

 

[J A]

34/70 ain't cheap pitching big.

Yep...some online prices are $5 or $6 but most are $7 to $9. If you found a great price and bought 8 or 10 packets, you'd be getting at about the same price as the Apex when it's on sale. Label Peelers is usually a good source and they have the Apex stuff on sale for $60 to $65 for 500 grams. As long as you have a vacuum sealer, it'll keep a long time (maybe not 5 years... )

 

[J A]

I don't store opened dry yeast, I know people do it successfully, but I don't to add any more possible problems to the brew.

That aside, I have over pitched 34/70 in the past. I ended up with a 'red rose" aroma that never faded. It turns out the be an ester that lager yeast can produce, but it's a little odd to be honest. I've learned that manufacturer's pitch rates are recommended for a reason. I pitch slightly higher than that and it turns out every time. I often think that 34/70 is really good even with a slight under pitch. I've under pitched a couple of times with it and the beer just turns out. 34/70 is one of the most forgiving yeasts out there.

As a side note, I brewed an American Lager @ 6 weeks ago with 34/70. I didn't like it all at first, it was estery and had a touch of weird sulfur/malt character, but after a over a month of lagering, it turned out really good. Maybe time is your best friend at this point.

That's interesting! That rose petal descriptor is pretty close to what I'm getting. It's not quite clove or cinnamon spice but it's sort of in that range. The beer does seem to be cleaner as it clears but it's not what I usually get. I'll be brewing another lager soon and I'll probably use my 2 small fermenters so I can do a split pitch and compare yeasts.

 

[Steve Ruch]

Yep...some online prices are $5 or $6 but most are $7 to $9. If you found a great price and bought 8 or 10 packets, you'd be getting at about the same price as the Apex when it's on sale. Label Peelers is usually a good source and they have the Apex stuff on sale for $60 to $65 for 500 grams. As long as you have a vacuum sealer, it'll keep a long time (maybe not 5 years... )

$4.99 at ritebrew and 40¢ off if you get 10 or more. The 10 don't have to be the same.

 

[J A]

$4.99 at ritebrew and 40¢ off if you get 10 or more. The 10 don't have to be the same.

Yeah, that's about the best price I usually find. Not a bad way to go for most homebrewers. However, even that price is still 3x the cost per gram compared to the Apex. Date of manufacture is sometimes a consideration, too. I've found that the stuff on sale is usually pretty old.

 

[Sandy Feet]

Yup, $5.99 at the brewstore here, but I pick it up, so no shipping.

 

[Steve Ruch]

Yeah, that's about the best price I usually find. Not a bad way to go for most homebrewers. However, even that price is still 3x the cost per gram compared to the Apex. Date of manufacture is sometimes a consideration, too. I've found that the stuff on sale is usually pretty old.

$4.99 isn't a sale price. And apex is $2.89, but the post was about W34/70.