Is it essential to boil wort?

[robintes]

Hope this is not a dumb question. Some recipes seem to require the wort to be rolling boiled for 30-60 mins. Indeed PC calculators even put in an allowance for replacing evaporated water.

Its a common concept in cookery that the higher heat you apply for a longer time can result in over cooked product thats lost its taste and flavours - so starting from there.

There is a type of cooking called Confit where food is cooked in oil at 90C

Why do we boil Wort so strongly. It cant be justified on sanitation reasons surely?

I recently mad a brew called Kvass, its made from toasted bread and raisins. Its a very old traditional recipe made in eastern europe for centuries - so its not mickey mouse.

I had a hacked slow cooker with a special thyristor temperature controller (very effective btw much better than the original crude thermostat - keeps temp at say 70C +/- 2C)

I put a mash in a 2 cups of crushed malt barley, same of toasted rye bread and 2L tap water and level to simmer at 65C overnight.
I took the mash up to 85C to stop further goings on with enzymes and pasteurise it all - then let cool to room 25C
threw in a handfull of chopped up raisins and a table spoon of brewers yeast and left for a day to ferment.
I then strained to a ferment vessel and doubled the volume up to 4L with warm tap water (previously left stand overnight)
I added some sugar in stages to bring up to OG 1050. And away it went.

After 2 weeks adjusting flavour with additions (ginger juice cinnamon sticks cloves), it became less hazy and them end product was remarkable as a enjoyable full flavoured drink. Its a kind of slightly sweet brown ale (no bittering added) and definitely to be tried again with more serious attention. I believe that the addition of raw ginger root juice (I made) will greatly enhance the keeping qualities as its a natural biocide.

Compared that with the lengths you have to go to making a Best Bitter or a proper lager

Your thoughts please - why do we boil the hell out of ingredients?

 

[Minbari]

Quick and dirty
1) malliard reactions - gives depth of flavor

2) sanitation- boiling kills germs.

3) isomerization of hops

There are people that do no boil beer, never tried it

 

[Zambi]

One is sanitation, just making sure no wild yeast can survive and you only get the one you choose.
But that can be achieved with a 5 minute boil or maybe even at lower temperature.

Hop, obviously

And the other one is grain related (boiling off DMS) and I let one of the others explain it

I've recently done some 45 minute boils and I think a brulosophy experiment found 30 minutes sufficient as well

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Your thoughts please - why do we boil the hell out of ingredients?

As Minbari has stated above, sanitation (above 145F/63C for 10 minutes will pasteurize), some flavor improvement and hop alpha acid isomerizing.

In addition, the boil is needed for protein coagulation, which improves clarity and colloidal stability (long term preservation). As Zambi mentioned, in lighter beers, it helps reduce DMS compounds (cooked vegetal flavors) which is a sulfur compound found in lightly kilned malt.

You can get by without a boil in some beers, especial dark beers. But if you were to brew a German Pils without a boil, you risk the flavor of cooked corn, cauliflower and even over ripe tomatoes. It's really tough to get great clarity without a good boil, so the benefits out weigh downsides. There are some parallels to cooking, but fermentation changes a lot.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

Just adding on to the other responses. The longer the boil, the more IBUs you get out of your hops. So if you change a recipe from a 60 minute boil to a 30 minute boil you would need to increase the amount bittering hops to compensate. I always do a 60 minute boil. While the wort is boiling I am doing other things like cleaning out the mash tun, sanitizing the fermenter, etc. Or I am just relaxing and zoning out next to the brew kettle. So I see no need to shorten the boil time.

Within the past year either Brew Your Own or Zymurgy magazine had an article on Kvass. Sounded interesting.

 

[robintes]

Indeed guys as I have limited facilities and I wanted to avoid boiling up large quantities of liquid for long periods

So it seems

a) Hops can be done in a small saucepan as needed for taste (I dont use hops I use bays leaves and black tea)
b) DME needs boiling up to cook it properly and develop its taste - this is well documented nuff said - as per Palmer method etc.
c) Simmering at 65C ish is needed to allow enzymes to work - well documented - Palmer
d) Raising wort to 80C sufficient to pasteurise
e) Can add additional tap water (left open overnight to evaporate chlorine)
f) Adjust OG upwards with additional white sugar boiled in a saucepan so it dissolves into liquid, add tsp of citric acid to convert to glucose which ferments quicker.
h) Hydrate yeast in a cup according to makers notes
j) Place in a temp controlled box/cupboard etc and come back in 2 weeks

Rest is history come back in two weeks for bottling whatever etc.

Is that deep down dirty enough for a simple brew? It wont satisfy purists of course but horses for course and we are a donkeys group. FYI we brew up and meet once a week in an allotment shed to shoot the breeze and sample our Ales. Was a time when silver slurpers would meet in the local pub, but those years have long gone as prices shot up £5/pint and traditional pubs all but closed and Spoons is socially unpleasant, so our allotment shed is where we escape the OH. I havent worked out the brew cost but it its <50p/pint kept in 2L Pet bottles

 

[Zambi]

To put another option out there
Add less water, boil and afterwards adjust SG to the required one by diluting with (previously) boiled water.
It works
I do it almost every brew.

Hydration of dry yeast is not necessary

 

[Minbari]

Wouldn't worry about white sugar. Just use the correct amount of grain. Sugar won't add flavor, just alcohol. If you want a very fermentable sugar, get pure corn sugar.

Be sure your tap water doesn't contain chloramine, that doesn't evaporate or boil out. You have to use either a camden tablet or bi-meta sulphate (which camden contains)

 

[Donoroto]

e) Can add additional tap water (left open overnight to evaporate chlorine)

Chlorine, yes, but not chloramine. Sodium (or potassium) Metabisulphate (Campden) addresses both instantly. 1/2 gram in 6-8 gallons is what I use.

 

[Ward Chillington]

2) sanitation- boiling kills germs.

Remember your beer history....
beer in Europe was safer to drink than the water!

 

[Ward Chillington]

Remember your beer history....
beer in Europe was safer to drink than the water! Brewers do everything for a good reason..

 

[robintes]

Remember your beer history....
beer in Europe was safer to drink than the water!

that was history, today in brewing circles municiple tap water is generally safe to drink (unless otherwise advised)

 

[Ward Chillington]

that was history, today in brewing circles municiple tap water is generally safe to drink (unless otherwise advised)

Well, yes but; the point being that you want a sanitary medium for the yeast to propagate in and not have to battle or be overcome by any unwanted bacteria.

 

[Donoroto]

Exactly. Almost never a problem, but hedge your bets and at least pasteurize it. Louie would be proud…

 

[Yooper]

Indeed guys as I have limited facilities and I wanted to avoid boiling up large quantities of liquid for long periods

So it seems

a) Hops can be done in a small saucepan as needed for taste (I dont use hops I use bays leaves and black tea)
b) DME needs boiling up to cook it properly and develop its taste - this is well documented nuff said - as per Palmer method etc.
c) Simmering at 65C ish is needed to allow enzymes to work - well documented - Palmer
d) Raising wort to 80C sufficient to pasteurise
e) Can add additional tap water (left open overnight to evaporate chlorine)
f) Adjust OG upwards with additional white sugar boiled in a saucepan so it dissolves into liquid, add tsp of citric acid to convert to glucose which ferments quicker.
h) Hydrate yeast in a cup according to makers notes
j) Place in a temp controlled box/cupboard etc and come back in 2 weeks

Rest is history come back in two weeks for bottling whatever etc.

Is that deep down dirty enough for a simple brew? It wont satisfy purists of course but horses for course and we are a donkeys group. FYI we brew up and meet once a week in an allotment shed to shoot the breeze and sample our Ales. Was a time when silver slurpers would meet in the local pub, but those years have long gone as prices shot up £5/pint and traditional pubs all but closed and Spoons is socially unpleasant, so our allotment shed is where we escape the OH. I havent worked out the brew cost but it its <50p/pint kept in 2L Pet bottles

A. No, not really. Hops can be boiled separately, but it’s not the same at all. Since you’re not using hops, this doesn’t apply.
B. You don’t need to boil DME. It’s spray dried. You can boil in for a minute if you want to. Not required really.
C. No enzymes if you’re using DME- it’s processed already and there are no enzymes to convert like with raw grain.
D. Well, ok. But not necessary if you’ve already boiled for a minute.
E. You can if it’s sanitary water of course.
F. No citric acid unless you want a sour lemon taste. You don’t have to invert sugar if you’re using yeast. You can also use honey, DME, etc for fermentables. Since you’re not using hops or grain, you can make it a braggot, gruit, etc.
G. There is no G in your post!
H. Not necessary.
I. Two weeks may be fine, or less time. Or more. When it’s done, it’s done.

Just a little clarification. Palmer doesn’t say that sugar needs to be inverted, that DME needs to have enzymatic activity, etc. Those items are ready to use as is.

 

[robintes]

There thats me, dirty old brewer DOB heh heh.

Crious isnt it, that boiling hops in a saucepan is deemed significantly different from dumping dry hops in a sock in the wort for a certain time? Lots of variables there? hmm

 

[Yooper]

There thats me, dirty old brewer DOB heh heh.

Crious isnt it, that boiling hops in a saucepan is deemed significantly different from dumping dry hops in a sock in the wort for a certain time? Lots of variables there? hmm

well, yes of course. Dry hops oils aren’t isomerized at all. So of course it would be significantly different. Think of a raw chicken vs a boiled chicken- significantly different. Yet, the same thing.

 

[Zambi]

well, yes of course. Dry hops oils aren’t isomerized at all. So of course it would be significantly different. Think of a raw chicken vs a boiled chicken- significantly different. Yet, the same thing.

I think he is referring to boiling in water vs boiling in wort...
And @robintes thanks for changing from the brewer# to your new handle

 

[robintes]

Yes guys I get the point raw chicken vs boiled chicken. Not having any chemical bg the influence of isomerisation is lost on me.

I was indeed referring to boiling in water vs boiling in wort (which requires a lot more heat and steel vessel vs plastic tub)

FWIW recently I have a system for making a cup of black tea. My cup is one of those neat glass double skinned ones which insulates effectively so keeping you cup much warmer for longer - good gear.
So I also tried a a system where I uses a teaspoon of leaves and poured in boiling water (like you would make a pot of tea). It made a very good traditional cup of tea (for me).

Then I tried one stage further where I steeped the leaves for 3mins then decanted the liquid into another glass for drinking etc. This worked but was somehow missing that extra flavour.
If you hold the leave in continual steeping then more of the tannins are leached out (as with a teapot)

So I reverted to my original method.

So similarities with hops I guess.

No doubt some learned nerd has done work on this - given Big Corp $$$$$

Anyone know - measurements of hop quality vs steeping time etc

 

[Yooper]

Yes guys I get the point raw chicken vs boiled chicken. Not having any chemical bg the influence of isomerisation is lost on me.

I was indeed referring to boiling in water vs boiling in wort (which requires a lot more heat and steel vessel vs plastic tub)

FWIW recently I have a system for making a cup of black tea. My cup is one of those neat glass double skinned ones which insulates effectively so keeping you cup much warmer for longer - good gear.
So I also tried a a system where I uses a teaspoon of leaves and poured in boiling water (like you would make a pot of tea). It made a very good traditional cup of tea (for me).

Then I tried one stage further where I steeped the leaves for 3mins then decanted the liquid into another glass for drinking etc. This worked but was somehow missing that extra flavour.
If you hold the leave in continual steeping then more of the tannins are leached out (as with a teapot)

So I reverted to my original method.

So similarities with hops I guess.

No doubt some learned nerd has done work on this - given Big Corp $$$$$

Anyone know - measurements of hop quality vs steeping time etc

Ah, you mentioned dry hops so I pictured dry hopping.
But yes, you get more isomerization in a larger volume. Here’s the basics of why.
The max isomerization (the chemical reaction of hops oils turning into bittering units) you can get in the best case is 100 (actually less based on various factors, but let’s go best case with 100 IBUs total as a max), no matter how many hops you put in there before the wort is saturation with hops oils and cannot isomerize. You’ll get more isomerization the longer you boil, up to about 65 minutes. After that, it’s not linear so a 90 minute boil may give you a bit more, but not markedly.

Ok, anyway….so say you boil 10 ounces of hops in 5 gallons of wort and get 100 IBUs. (You’ll get less except in a vacuum/perfect world, but let’s roll with that to make my math easier!).

Now say you boil 10 ounces of hops in 2.5 gallons of wort. Even if you get 100 IBUs, which you won’t but again, best and easiest scenario, you’ll have 2.5 gallons of 100 IBU wort. Then, if you’re making a 5 gallon batch, you top up with 2.5 gallons of water. So that’s 2.5 gallons of 100 IBU wort and 2.5 gallons of 0 IBU wort. That means that this 5 gallon batch has 50 IBUs. Fine for many beers, but not the intended result. And again, you’ll more likely get a max of about 80 IBUS in the real world as a max, so now you’re looking at 40 IBUs.

If the quantities are even less, say you boil two quarts of water and get 100 IBUs with all of the hops. Then you add that to your unhopped wort of 4.5 gallons, you now have 10 IBUs.

Now, as to your question of boiling/steeping time- Hops isomerization is also a question of temperature. At boiling at sea level (100C), you can maximize the isomerization and as was mentioned 60 minutes is a good way to get good isomerization without using more fuel, etc, for little gain. The lower the temperature, and the less time it is boiled or steeped, the less isomerization happens.

There is also a lessening of isomerization in ‘heavy’ wort since there are more suspended solids to drop out, so a very high SG wort will have less isomerization of the hops oils. I’ve noticed that making a hop tea and adding it later to an under hopper wort does work, but it has some harshness to it that is lacking in wort-hopping.

You can look up the formulas and do the math, but luckily our software does that for us so I don’t have to. I suggest that all brewers do it with pencil and paper one or two times, to know the formula but I’m not just doing it for the entertainment value today.