Finally hit my numbers

[Chip99]

Back five weeks or so ago I posted that I had finally hit my numbers (meaning SG before and after boil) on a "strong ale". Pre boil 1058 both refract and hydro. Post was 1062 on both. I'm using an all in one and set it for my mash temp (152) thinking that I don't need to adjust strike water temp to account for grain temp (I know now that is a huge mistake). So I finally checked temps of the grain bed finding that they were MUCH lower than the temp indicated on my all in one kettle. So I was recirculating and stirring like crazy to get the temps up. And extended the mash time also. The result was hitting the SG's but also a very "dirty" wort. And as I bottled after fermentation a dirty looking flow coming in while bottling the beer. Highest trub level I have seen inside my fermenter. In the end, popping the first one today, the beer is probably one of the best tasting I've brewed out of a dozen batches. VERY tasty and being a long time beer drinker, higher on the ABV range. But also A LOT of junk in the trunk!!! Bottom of the first glass from a 22 ounce bottle has about 3/16" of crap at the bottom. Which honestly I personally do not mind. But friends I might want to share it with might.

Anyway, question is, how to correct my mistakes other than the obvious one which is to INCREASE the strike water temperature so the grain bed is at proper temp. Should I not stir the grain bed ( and I mean I was stirring full depth and was using a bag inside my grain sleeve also). I had also forgot to put on my torpedo screen on the inside of the kettle before draining to the fermenter. and lastly I used Safale US-05 yeast as directed if that makes any difference. All comments highly appreciated.... Chip

 

[Bigbre04]

whirlfloc and a proper whirlpool/whirlpool rest. also you were likely pulling from the bottom of the fermenter instead of from above the yeast cone. Is it a Uni tank or just a carboy?

I stir mine. i do my best to leave as much of the hot break and grain/trub in the kettle as possible. I dont use fining or anything and my beers generally are crystal clear on draft.

 

[Zambi]

Longer wait before bottling?

 

[Minbari]

Fining agent and don't pull from the bottom of the fermentor when bottling.

I also use a simple inline filter to keep larger chucks out

 

[Sandy Feet]

When my wife was alive, she used to give me a "Mr. Skunky" sticker to put on top of the last bottle. That was the brewer's bottle with most of the sediment. The less you pull off the bottom, the less sediment you will have. Time does let things settle too. There is much more crap on the bottom of my fermenter at 14 days than there is at 7.
The plastic carboys have a plastic piece that is elevated in the middle for that reason so that the syphon can sit a little higher.

 

[Chip99]

whirlfloc and a proper whirlpool/whirlpool rest. also you were likely pulling from the bottom of the fermenter instead of from above the yeast cone. Is it a Uni tank or just a carboy?

I stir mine. i do my best to leave as much of the hot break and grain/trub in the kettle as possible. I dont use fining or anything and my beers generally are crystal clear on draft.

I have one of these Speidel fermenters. Usually enough room below the spigot to collect up the trub and not drain off to my bottling bucket.

 

[Dave Y]

First off, GREAT news !

What I’ve done over time is brewing extra; what I call “overhead” beer. Instead of brewing a 5.5 gallon target, I have a minimum 6 gallon and sometimes 7 gallon recipe. This way, I can end up with ~6 gallons of --clear-- wort in the fermenter. Also, IF I miss my numbers by a little, I can do a quick recalculate and see how much I can boil off to “make up” the numbers to hit my starting gravity.

I’m using an Anvil 18 and that sucker is on the heavy side. Yeah, if I have to, I can dump that last .5 gallons of trub with some wort in it, but, if I just brew a slightly bigger batch, I can just transfer the clean wort.

As to the temp:
When you mash in, you’re already stirring and agitating to ensure there are no dough balls. I don’t think the strike temp is as big a deal as it’s made out to be IF you begin recirculating right away and you’re flowing the maximum amount you can without getting a stuck mash. This is usually not wide open, but more than you probably think. Unless you’re doing a mash bill with a lot of wheat, rye or oats. Then you need to monitor the mash pretty carefully.

After talking with Anvil/Blichmann, the steps that got me to better efficiency were
- recirculate like Chicago voters- early and often.
- stir regularly. I do about every 10-15.
- lift the basket out of the wort, let it drain mostly - 30-60 seconds. Re seat, stir, and resume recirculating.
Like you observed, mash until you hit the targets, not just 60 minutes because that’s what the recipe says. Recipe instructions are calculated to the least common denominator and not guys like you who are advanced beyond that. Also, Anvil has a stainless mesh ‘filter’ to go on the pickup tube in the kettle. This is great for keeping ’stuff’ out of your recirculation pump and in the kettle while you transfer to the fermenter.

Just last weekend I brewed a Märzen; almost 15 pounds of malt x 6 gallons targeted for the fermenter. I was almost 2 hours and honestly, I was about to stop short of my numbers, just after the mash out. For reasons I do not yet understand, almost every time I mash out; going from usually about 152 to 169 for about 10 minutes, I pick up gravity. So I did 10 minutes of mash out, lifted my basket completely out of the wort in the kettle and left the recirculation going ; a vourlauf if you will. About this time my neighbor came over, and I got to showing off my hop garden. After this I came back and sure enough, I’d gone from about 1.052 to about 1.056! Woohoo! After the sparge I was sitting pretty at 1.046 and a little over my target volume. I boiled off about 15 minutes worth and started the hop schedule, hit 1.061, my target was 1.060.

 

[Craigerrr]

I have one of these Speidel fermenters. Usually enough room below the spigot to collect up the trub and not drain off to my bottling bucket.View attachment 31612

I use to have a couple of speidels, I really liked them (I use an allrounder now). To make sure that the trub, yeast, and hop debris were below the spigot I put a piece of wood below the spigot to tip the fermenter back.

 

[Craigerrr]

hitting your numbers is a good feeling, way to go!

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

For reasons I do not yet understand, almost every time I mash out; going from usually about 152 to 169 for about 10 minutes, I pick up gravity.

This really common when step mashing. The beta amylase enzyme starts to denature around 149-150F and stops working @ 5-10 minutes at that temperature. The alpha amylase has a much higher temperature tolerance and denatures to @ 168F. The higher the temperatures, the faster both enzymes work and they will convert very fast until they denature.

You're speeding up the activity of the alpha enzyme with the higher temperatures and converting the last of the starches to fermentable and non-fermentable sugars. That is one advantage to a "mash out". The beta enzyme was probably denatured before this in the mash.

Both enzymes are important, but the bad thing about them is that the beta needs the alpha to work first so the beta can finish the conversion. The beta enzyme produces the simplest and easiest to ferment sugars, the alpha creates more complex sugars and can add to the body of the beer as well as more complex sugars. Beta works on alpha's leftovers, so the target temperature of each enzyme is kind of backwards for brewers.

I'll shut up now.

 

[Dave Y]

This really common when step mashing. The beta amylase enzyme starts to denature around 149-150F and stops working @ 5-10 minutes at that temperature. The alpha amylase has a much higher temperature tolerance and denatures to @ 168F. The higher the temperatures, the faster both enzymes work and they will convert very fast until they denature.

You're speeding up the activity of the alpha enzyme with the higher temperatures and converting the last of the starches to fermentable and non-fermentable sugars. That is one advantage to a "mash out". The beta enzyme was probably denatured before this in the mash.

Both enzymes are important, but the bad thing about them is that the beta needs the alpha to work first so the beta can finish the conversion. The beta enzyme produces the simplest and easiest to ferment sugars, the alpha creates more complex sugars and can add to the body of the beer as well as more complex sugars. Beta works on alpha's leftovers, so the target temperature of each enzyme is kind of backwards for brewers.

I'll shut up now.

Man, thanks for that info. I just watched the step mashing video series. I knew the how to, etc. but I wanted some more supporting info and understanding. To me, the odd thing is that 95% of my brews are single infusion, all but Scottish and a ‘wonder what a step mash would do here’ brews. Almost everything else, single infusion at 152F. That said, this weekend’s Märzen I did do a step mash. Since storing my recipes in B/F, it looks like all of them have been single infusion. I know at least one of my first 5 was a step mash and it did not ferment fully. It was still drinkable but a little too sweet on the finish.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I have one of these Speidel fermenters. Usually enough room below the spigot to collect up the trub and not drain off to my bottling bucket.View attachment 31612

That looks groovy. Make sure you clean that spigot very well.

 

[Chip99]

First off, GREAT news !

What I’ve done over time is brewing extra; what I call “overhead” beer. Instead of brewing a 5.5 gallon target, I have a minimum 6 gallon and sometimes 7 gallon recipe. This way, I can end up with ~6 gallons of --clear-- wort in the fermenter. Also, IF I miss my numbers by a little, I can do a quick recalculate and see how much I can boil off to “make up” the numbers to hit my starting gravity.

I’m using an Anvil 18 and that sucker is on the heavy side. Yeah, if I have to, I can dump that last .5 gallons of trub with some wort in it, but, if I just brew a slightly bigger batch, I can just transfer the clean wort.

As to the temp:
When you mash in, you’re already stirring and agitating to ensure there are no dough balls. I don’t think the strike temp is as big a deal as it’s made out to be IF you begin recirculating right away and you’re flowing the maximum amount you can without getting a stuck mash. This is usually not wide open, but more than you probably think. Unless you’re doing a mash bill with a lot of wheat, rye or oats. Then you need to monitor the mash pretty carefully.

After talking with Anvil/Blichmann, the steps that got me to better efficiency were
- recirculate like Chicago voters- early and often.
- stir regularly. I do about every 10-15.
- lift the basket out of the wort, let it drain mostly - 30-60 seconds. Re seat, stir, and resume recirculating.
Like you observed, mash until you hit the targets, not just 60 minutes because that’s what the recipe says. Recipe instructions are calculated to the least common denominator and not guys like you who are advanced beyond that. Also, Anvil has a stainless mesh ‘filter’ to go on the pickup tube in the kettle. This is great for keeping ’stuff’ out of your recirculation pump and in the kettle while you transfer to the fermenter.

Just last weekend I brewed a Märzen; almost 15 pounds of malt x 6 gallons targeted for the fermenter. I was almost 2 hours and honestly, I was about to stop short of my numbers, just after the mash out. For reasons I do not yet understand, almost every time I mash out; going from usually about 152 to 169 for about 10 minutes, I pick up gravity. So I did 10 minutes of mash out, lifted my basket completely out of the wort in the kettle and left the recirculation going ; a vourlauf if you will. About this time my neighbor came over, and I got to showing off my hop garden. After this I came back and sure enough, I’d gone from about 1.052 to about 1.056! Woohoo! After the sparge I was sitting pretty at 1.046 and a little over my target volume. I boiled off about 15 minutes worth and started the hop schedule, hit 1.061, my target was 1.060.

Wow! What a great reply and info! Thank you very much!... Chip

 

[Chip99]

When my wife was alive, she used to give me a "Mr. Skunky" sticker to put on top of the last bottle. That was the brewer's bottle with most of the sediment. The less you pull off the bottom, the less sediment you will have. Time does let things settle too. There is much more crap on the bottom of my fermenter at 14 days than there is at 7.
The plastic carboys have a plastic piece that is elevated in the middle for that reason so that the syphon can sit a little higher.

Yeah I don't siphon. I use the spigot with a tube attached to drain without agitation into my bottling bucket. Normally that is good enough but not on this last "strong ale" batch. It was very "dirty"... Chip

 

[Chip99]

I use to have a couple of speidels, I really liked them (I use an allrounder now). To make sure that the trub, yeast, and hop debris were below the spigot I put a piece of wood below the spigot to tip the fermenter back.
View attachment 31613

Hmmm, I thought the opposite. put a block in the back so the liquid comes to the front? Maybe I'm doing it all wrong IDK... Chip

 

[Chip99]

First off, GREAT news !

What I’ve done over time is brewing extra; what I call “overhead” beer. Instead of brewing a 5.5 gallon target, I have a minimum 6 gallon and sometimes 7 gallon recipe. This way, I can end up with ~6 gallons of --clear-- wort in the fermenter. Also, IF I miss my numbers by a little, I can do a quick recalculate and see how much I can boil off to “make up” the numbers to hit my starting gravity.

I’m using an Anvil 18 and that sucker is on the heavy side. Yeah, if I have to, I can dump that last .5 gallons of trub with some wort in it, but, if I just brew a slightly bigger batch, I can just transfer the clean wort.

As to the temp:
When you mash in, you’re already stirring and agitating to ensure there are no dough balls. I don’t think the strike temp is as big a deal as it’s made out to be IF you begin recirculating right away and you’re flowing the maximum amount you can without getting a stuck mash. This is usually not wide open, but more than you probably think. Unless you’re doing a mash bill with a lot of wheat, rye or oats. Then you need to monitor the mash pretty carefully.

After talking with Anvil/Blichmann, the steps that got me to better efficiency were
- recirculate like Chicago voters- early and often.
- stir regularly. I do about every 10-15.
- lift the basket out of the wort, let it drain mostly - 30-60 seconds. Re seat, stir, and resume recirculating.
Like you observed, mash until you hit the targets, not just 60 minutes because that’s what the recipe says. Recipe instructions are calculated to the least common denominator and not guys like you who are advanced beyond that. Also, Anvil has a stainless mesh ‘filter’ to go on the pickup tube in the kettle. This is great for keeping ’stuff’ out of your recirculation pump and in the kettle while you transfer to the fermenter.

Just last weekend I brewed a Märzen; almost 15 pounds of malt x 6 gallons targeted for the fermenter. I was almost 2 hours and honestly, I was about to stop short of my numbers, just after the mash out. For reasons I do not yet understand, almost every time I mash out; going from usually about 152 to 169 for about 10 minutes, I pick up gravity. So I did 10 minutes of mash out, lifted my basket completely out of the wort in the kettle and left the recirculation going ; a vourlauf if you will. About this time my neighbor came over, and I got to showing off my hop garden. After this I came back and sure enough, I’d gone from about 1.052 to about 1.056! Woohoo! After the sparge I was sitting pretty at 1.046 and a little over my target volume. I boiled off about 15 minutes worth and started the hop schedule, hit 1.061, my target was 1.060.

Seems with "overhead beer" you can't make your target SG. That's what I used to do was brew to "volume" and not SG. That didn't work to hit the ABV I was looking for. Am I missing something???? Chip

 

[Chip99]

Fining agent and don't pull from the bottom of the fermentor when bottling.

I also use a simple inline filter to keep larger chucks out

I use rice hulls. Is that considered a fining agent? If not, what would be a fining agent? Thanks... Chip

 

[Craigerrr]

Hmmm, I thought the opposite. put a block in the back so the liquid comes to the front? Maybe I'm doing it all wrong IDK... Chip

I had a picture that showed how this worked, but can't find it. The trub settles level so the top of the cake will be below the spigot.
You can see here that the trub is below the spigot, sorry but I can't find the side shot.
I sold the speidels 3-4 few years ago.

 

[Chip99]

I had a picture that showed how this worked, but can't find it. The trub settles level so the top of the cake will be below the spigot.
You can see here that the trub is below the spigot, sorry but I can't find the side shot.
I sold the speidels 3-4 few years ago.

View attachment 31615

makes sense. do that and let it sit for an hour or so before draining to a bottling bucket?

 

[Dave Y]

Seems with "overhead beer" you can't make your target SG. That's what I used to do was brew to "volume" and not SG. That didn't work to hit the ABV I was looking for. Am I missing something???? Chip

Yes, I calculate for a 6-7 gallon batch instead of 5 gallons or 5.5. More volume on bigger beer with more hops.
I boil down from about 8.5 down to 7.75 gallons at the start to 6.5 - 6 ish gallons at the finish. My boil rate is ~1.7 gallons / hour

So ideally, I end up with about 3/4 - 1 gallon of beer and trub in the boil / all in one kettle, leaving that stuff there and transferring what’s left to the fermenter. Since I calculate my mash for more gallons, I end up with more. I don’t just add more water, I add more water, malt & hops. if you were to take your recipe, change the target in fermenter volume and boil volume to say 7.5 down to 6.5 gallons for example, your gravity, IBUs, etc. will go down. You can add some malt to bring up the gravity and alter the hop schedule to keep the IBUs up.

I still transfer some sediment through the braided stainless pickup tube filter, but way less than if I dumped every last drop.
But, let’s say my mash isn’t up to snuff and I don’t get the extraction I was looking for and I have 8.25 gallons of wort at 1.044 but, I am looking for a minimum 1.048. I can sacrifice some of my ‘overhead’ wort, boil 10-15 minutes, monitoring with the refractometer and when I’m close enough, I start the hop schedule. I did this just recently. Hurt my shoulder patting myself on the back.