Fast Lager

[Mastoras007]

Hello everyone
Preparing (in my mind) the next batch, I'm making some research about a faster way to get a lager.
I found some articles from John Palmer using a method as (is copy paste):

"- When the ferment is 50 percent complete, raise temperature 5o to 57 oF When the ferment is 75 percent complete, raise to 62 oF When the ferment is 90 percent complete, raise to 66 oF and hold until at terminal gravity."

Have anyone tried ?

 

[Mastoras007]

The continued article

"Yeast have three phases in their life cycle: Adaptation, high growth, and stationary…They do not have a maturation phase where they clean up byproducts…Byproducts can be consumed at any point during the high growth phase, but they are a lower energy source than sugar, so guess what? Byproducts are not a biological priority. The brewer therefore needs to plan his pitching rate and fermentation conditions such that the yeast run out of fermentable wort sugar before…they go into stationary phase. Now you have a majority of vigorous yeast… the sugar is gone, and they are still hungry, so they turn to acetaldehyde and diacetyl as alternate energy sources and maturate the beer.”

 

[Over The Cliff Brewing]

I have not done this as I don't brew a lot of lagers. I guess the main question I have is how fast are you wanting your lager to be ready to serve? Options I know of are try using Novalager yeast by Lallemand, You can ferment a bit higher for a quicker turnaround. You can also try fermenting under pressure. There are more knowledgeable brewers here than me so they can help. If you don't care about the clarity of your lager, then, you can probably get one done in 12 - 14 days. Generally a lagering period for clarity will add to your timeframe.

 

[Mastoras007]

Im hoping to get a 10-14 days grain to glass
Clarity is a issue but for now i want just to focus on procces - taste

 

[Mastoras007]

I will use

Saflager W34/70​

 

[Dave Y]

That’s ambitious depending on the lager. If you do a starter culture and have a strong yeast at pitch, you should see fermentation at about 12 hours hence.
If it’s a reasonable - say 5% beer without too much grain with low diastatic power, it could be as short as 7-8 days to cold crash.

I’ve heard / read mixed opinions on pitching temp. The starter culture is running about room temp for me, so what I usually do is pitch close to room temp or ambient, agitate and let the chiller bring the temp down slowly to about 65F. I’ll either step that down over the next few hours or drop into high 50’s at first sign of airlock activity and then gradually down to about 52 or so. Other like to pitch cold and warm the wort to fermentation temps.

Ref: https://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ & https://brulosophy.com/2020/12/21/l...rial-yeast-l09-que-bueno-exbeeriment-results/

I like to let mine run cold, but I will raise the temp when it’s about 1.030-ish. Usually I gradually increase it while it’s still working and often I never make to 60 before the beer finishes.
Good, fresh yeast and a solid starter are keys here.

You should have a good idea if you’ll be able to turn it around quickly at kegging time. My Märzen batch one hit the 1.013 target yesterday and I cold crashed it. I don’t have a good time estimate because the first yeast I pitched was 1) old and 2) despite a starter, turned out to be almost completely dead. I got another one, much more fresh, did another starter and finished it up. from about 1.056 to 1.013 was 2nd April to 12 April - 10 days.

Prior to that, my Mexican Texas style lager was 1.049 to 1.012 in 7 days; it finished at 1.011 continuing to ferment well below the ‘range’ on the yeast description

I think if I’d raise the temp on that I may have shaved part of a day, maybe a full day, but I didn’t want to get greedy.
This beer tasted right in the lane at kegging and it’s about to go on tap today or tomorrow.

IMO, 14-20 days is a more realistic service level objective (SLO), allows you some wiggle room for errors, recovery, etc. I’ve had a few ‘green’ beers that I thought were quite good, but also a few that were in need of some conditioning, but they’re my beers and I’m not objective.

 

[Mastoras007]

i will do a starter (first time!) 274 billion cells its 1.50M cells / mL / °P
starting gravity 1049, if i can hit the 14 days it's a win!
Starter managing is not something i know to do, but i thing i will try to run my starter same tempreture of pitching ( probably close to the low end temp )

 

[Dave Y]

Many brewing supply business have yeast starter kits ; a beaker, a magnetic pill looking device, and a magnetic stir plate. You queue up some dry malt extract OR actual wort and pitch the yeast for about 1.5L for a 5 gallon batch. Let it run for about 15-18 hours, the yeast cells will multiply like mad, so when you pitch it’s ready to rock. If you do pitch the entire 1.5L, you may lose some gravity, typically .002 - .004 If that’s an issue, you can start the culture way in advance, run it the 15-18 hours and cold crash it. let the yeast settle out, dump off the excess but keep just a little wort on top of the yeast ‘cake’. when almost ready to pitch, dump off the remaining liquid and let the yeast warm at ambient temperature for a few minutes. You don’t need it to reach room temp. When the wort and yeast are close enough in temperature, add some wort to your yeast and agitate. Pitch the yeast, oxygenate and let it ferment.

Usually, I just pitch the whole starter and calculate that I’ll drop some gravity post pitch.
It’s really not very difficult.

 

[Mastoras007]

Starter at room temperature?
I'm going to use lager yeast, is ok to do it at room temperature?
I think sounds more safe to cold crash it first,
I don't have stir plate but i have this special vessel for starters also Dried malt extract i have already.

 

[Dave Y]

You’re just getting the yeast to start multiplying. I’ve done ... 3 dozen lagers(?) maybe 4 dozen, done starters at room temp for all of them.
A guy in the local brew club uses an aquarium air pump instead of the stir plate.

Just make sure everything is CLEAN and SANITIZED. Thoroughly. I use one of the conical fermenter “airlock bungs” .... <heheh... bung...> and an airlock with no water on top of the beaker. The guy who uses the aquarium pump uses a Mason canning jar, and foil to cover it. So it doesn’t take fancy equipment but just has to be clean and sanitized.

 

[Mastoras007]

Anyway a successful starter with the proper cells number and a good tempreture management do you thing will give me 10-14 days good tasting lager?
the clarity is something i will pay attention to the next batch

 

[J A]

A 10-day lager is possible, even at a homebrew level using 34-70 yeast and 14 days is a comfortable turnaround time. A starter is not necessary and is not even desirable with dry yeast. Use a proper pitch rate, pitch and ferment around 58F and hold it until probably day 4 or 5 when gravity is less than 1.020 and raise to 65F for the remainder of the fermentation. Cap the fermenter (15 PSI release valve is fine) at about 1.015. Terminal gravity should be reached around day 7. A hard crash to 35F for 3 days should allow kegging with Biofine or other fining agent. Burst carbing may be needed if the carb level is a little low but it's probably about right. Two or three days stored at 35 and not moved will settle out almost all yeast and beer will be clear and have good flavor. Finding the perfect dose of keg finings is important.

At the pro level, either filtration or using finings in a brite tank or unitank will might be the preferred method.

 

[Donoroto]

Starter at room temperature?
I'm going to use lager yeast, is ok to do it at room temperature?
I think sounds more safe to cold crash it first,
I don't have stir plate but i have this special vessel for starters also Dried malt extract i have already.

Starter at room temperature - even lager yeast - is correct. You do not really care the taste of the starter ‘beer’, just the quantity of yeast.

 

[Josh Hughes]

If you are using 34/70; once you get over 50% let it warmup. Not fast but don’t freak out. Keep it under 70 F. If you have plenty when you start and the first part of your fermentation is good it will be fine. Not going to taste the same as a lager that had time to lager and won’t be as clear but it can be super tasty anyway. To be honest in summer I warm ferment under pressure with 34/70 and it’s super clean. There will be disagreements about this and since I’m making my own beer you all don’t taste it so I can prove it haha @Donoroto has had my lager brewed that way. When I ferment cold I let it warm once it hits 50%

 

[Dave Y]

Anyway a successful starter with the proper cells number and a good tempreture management do you thing will give me 10-14 days good tasting lager?
the clarity is something i will pay attention to the next batch

Do you have a pressure capable fermenter?
...

A 10-day lager is possible, even at a homebrew level using 34-70 yeast and 14 days is a comfortable turnaround time. A starter is not necessary and is not even desirable with dry yeast. Use a proper pitch rate, pitch and ferment around 58F and hold it until probably day 4 or 5 when gravity is less than 1.020 and raise to 65F for the remainder of the fermentation. Cap the fermenter (15 PSI release valve is fine) at about 1.015. Terminal gravity should be reached around day 7. A hard crash to 35F for 3 days should allow kegging with Biofine or other fining agent. Burst carbing may be needed if the carb level is a little low but it's probably about right. Two or three days stored at 35 and not moved will settle out almost all yeast and beer will be clear and have good flavor. Finding the perfect dose of keg finings is important.

At the pro level, either filtration or using finings in a brite tank or unitank will might be the preferred method.

At the level of a home brewer... i have a different opinion. Without fail, when I want a Märzen yeast, or a yeast for a particular brew that i want --RFN-- it’s out of stock at the local home brew place. Sure, I can mail order and i do a lot of times but it’s not guarantee. When I can land strains for something I want to do again but I’m not sure when and it’s got a good date range, I grab it. I don’t always have very current dry yeast and the local home brew shops I’ve had the pleasure of dealing with are always having yeast go bad in the fridge and sometimes you can end up with one if you’re not diligent about checking.

So I run a starter on all of them. Is it overkill? probably 90% of my brews, yes. Does it help if you have a package of yeast that is close to expiring? The number of times I’ve successfully brewed with one using a starter suggests to me that it does help.

If you are using 34/70; once you get over 50% let it warmup. Not fast but don’t freak out. Keep it under 70 F. If you have plenty when you start and the first part of your fermentation is good it will be fine. Not going to taste the same as a lager that had time to lager and won’t be as clear but it can be super tasty anyway. To be honest in summer I warm ferment under pressure with 34/70 and it’s super clean. There will be disagreements about this and since I’m making my own beer you all don’t taste it so I can prove it haha @Donoroto has had my lager brewed that way.

I had read about this and.. didn’t Brülosophy do a comparison of cold and warmer fermented lagers... ? This didn’t even occur to me so if you were to ferment warmer it would finish quicker.

 

[Sandy Feet]

You can do 34/70 in the same amount of time as an ale BUT it is a hell of a lot better if you give it another couple or three weeks. Pitch big around 62. Go 55 for a couple of days and then bring it up. It will ferment out in a reasonable time near 60 and be very clean. It depends on how fast you can carb it. Would I want to do it? No. I think you could get something halfway decent in just over three weeks with that yeast, but waiting longer gets a much better beer.

 

[Donoroto]

If you are using 34/70; once you get over 50% let it warmup. Not fast but don’t freak out. Keep it under 70 F. If you have plenty when you start and the first part of your fermentation is good it will be fine. Not going to taste the same as a lager that had time to lager and won’t be as clear but it can be super tasty anyway. To be honest in summer I warm ferment under pressure with 34/70 and it’s super clean. There will be disagreements about this and since I’m making my own beer you all don’t taste it so I can prove it haha @Donoroto has had my lager brewed that way. When I ferment cold I let it warm once it hits 50%

Agree: Both that Josh’s lager was exceptional, and that brewing under pressure suppresses yeast-made esters that are ‘not-clean’ (so to speak).

 

[J A]

So I run a starter on all of them. Is it overkill? probably 90% of my brews, yes. Does it help if you have a package of yeast that is close to expiring? The number of times I’ve successfully brewed with one using a starter suggests to me that it does help.



When it comes down to it, I've done a "starter" many times to build yeast by simply pitching a couple packets of S-23 or 34/70 on a 5 gallon batch and using the slurry for a 10 to 15 gallon batch. I think it may be academic but the current prevailing wisdom says that spinning a starter or over-oxygenating dry yeast upsets the balance of lipids or something since it's prepared in a very different way than liquid yeast. Even hydrating dry yeast seems to be out of favor and I've been a proponent of that all along. At the level of 5 and 10-gallon batches, we may never see any big difference. We end up repeating processes that work but that doesn't mean it's the only way to skin a cat.

 

[Dave Y]

That’s a good point about scaling up. If we were talking about barrel or multiple barrel sized batches, I wonder how the equation would change?

I’ve often wondered how brewing on a commercial - say pico to micro brewery scale changes the process and calculations.

 

[Mastoras007]

Do you have a pressure capable fermenter

No i don't