Equipment profile : how are hop utilization factors used

Meaulnes

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Hi,
I am new to Brewer's friend and I have trouble understanding what are in the Equipment Profile the various hop utilization factors and how they are used. For example, according to Palmer, the bitterness can be evaluated using 2 functions: F(G) and F(t) where G and t are respectively gravity and time. No need to declare anything else.
I am used to other software such as Beersmith and Brewfather and I don't remember having had to declare such utilization factors.
Help would be appreciated.
 
Welcome to the forum @Meaulnes

There are a bunch of hop adjustments on the Equipment Profile page. I leave almost all blank, mostly because I don't know that to put there. So I am very interested in what others answer to this question. One item I leave leave blank for a reason is the Hop Utilization. I leave it blank because it is automatically set for you when you specify altitude.

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Thank you for your welcome. I am curious also to hear from others what they have to say about this adjustments. Comparing to what I get with Brewfather they do not seem to be that important.
 
Thank you for your welcome. I am curious also to hear from others what they have to say about this adjustments. Comparing to what I get with Brewfather they do not seem to be that important.

I get the same impression. It doesn't really matter unless you are brewing at a higher elevation. @Nosybear do you have to adjust for lower hop utilization at higher altitudes?
 
I get the same impression. It doesn't really matter unless you are brewing at a higher elevation. @Nosybear do you have to adjust for lower hop utilization at higher altitudes?
I do. Boiling point up here is about 202 degrees F, lowers isomerization. Before I knew what was going on, I always used the higher end of the range of bitterness for a brew with good results. The good thing is that Brewer's Friend adjusts utilization based on altitude, if you put altitude into your profile. I'm at about 6,000 feet/1800 meters.
 
Hi,
I am new to Brewer's friend and I have trouble understanding what are in the Equipment Profile the various hop utilization factors and how they are used. For example, according to Palmer, the bitterness can be evaluated using 2 functions: F(G) and F(t) where G and t are respectively gravity and time. No need to declare anything else.
I am used to other software such as Beersmith and Brewfather and I don't remember having had to declare such utilization factors.
Help would be appreciated.

I'll try and be descriptive without going too deep into the somewhat poorly researched outdated science,

Classically Utilization, as described by Tinseth for example, is purely a function of the gravity*1 and time*2
https://realbeer.com/hops/research.html

*1 - Gravity Tinseth specifically generalized this to only be the midpoint boil gravity, this varies by interpretation from software to software since it wasn't consistently or properly documented or described in his publications

*2 - Time - Specifically the individual time that each hop is boiled, but this does not take into account how the pH changes over time as the wort boils regardless of the timing of the individual hop addition.

Modern challenges to these out of date formulas:
1) Doesn't account for modern hop additions not occurring during a boil. Classically, all the IBU formulas predict a 0 IBU addition to a flameout addition, or whirlpool, or hopstand. Let alone dry hopping. Thus we need to do some kind of fudge-factor for each non-boiling step, which should be dependent on the duration of the step after the boil ends, as well as the temperature (curve)

2) All the old research was done in the range of 0IBU up to around 40 IBU. Thus didn't take into account the solubility limits and diminishing returns as you approach a "soft cap" around 70 (measured) ibus, to borrow videogame terminology. As you get closer to that soft cap, the utilization SHOULD decline rapidly, but doesn't really do so.

3) All of the research was done with leaf hops, not pellets. Pellets generally have a much higher AA, but also break down and isomerize more quickly (think about how grain crush affects the conversion vs time function). Additionally there are a variety of hop products available nowadays from T45 pellets, T90 pellets, dried leafs, aged hops, aged pellets, cryo hops, lupilin max hops, hop extract and hop oils. etc.

We've introduced an adaptation to problem 1), just as many other software has, by attempting to apply a modification to the utilization and treating it as if it was a boil addition. At some point we will be revisiting this feature and taking a different approach, as right now we're independantly treating a boil addition as if it stops isomerizing completely as soon as the boil ends, while also calculating a meaningful IBU contribution from a whirlpool addition. In reality, both the whirlpool addition AND the boiled hop will continue to isomerize.

Additionally the kettle geometry places a part here as well, as the hop oils stick to the kettle walls. This was largely ignored and tried to be combined with the boil off factor, following the assumption that the difference in the "standard" range of brew kettles is not significant enough to be worth chasing as a separate variable. But it is known non the less to be a contributing factor.
 
I'll try and be descriptive without going too deep into the somewhat poorly researched outdated science,

Classically Utilization, as described by Tinseth for example, is purely a function of the gravity*1 and time*2
https://realbeer.com/hops/research.html

*1 - Gravity Tinseth specifically generalized this to only be the midpoint boil gravity, this varies by interpretation from software to software since it wasn't consistently or properly documented or described in his publications

*2 - Time - Specifically the individual time that each hop is boiled, but this does not take into account how the pH changes over time as the wort boils regardless of the timing of the individual hop addition.

Modern challenges to these out of date formulas:
1) Doesn't account for modern hop additions not occurring during a boil. Classically, all the IBU formulas predict a 0 IBU addition to a flameout addition, or whirlpool, or hopstand. Let alone dry hopping. Thus we need to do some kind of fudge-factor for each non-boiling step, which should be dependent on the duration of the step after the boil ends, as well as the temperature (curve)

2) All the old research was done in the range of 0IBU up to around 40 IBU. Thus didn't take into account the solubility limits and diminishing returns as you approach a "soft cap" around 70 (measured) ibus, to borrow videogame terminology. As you get closer to that soft cap, the utilization SHOULD decline rapidly, but doesn't really do so.

3) All of the research was done with leaf hops, not pellets. Pellets generally have a much higher AA, but also break down and isomerize more quickly (think about how grain crush affects the conversion vs time function). Additionally there are a variety of hop products available nowadays from T45 pellets, T90 pellets, dried leafs, aged hops, aged pellets, cryo hops, lupilin max hops, hop extract and hop oils. etc.

We've introduced an adaptation to problem 1), just as many other software has, by attempting to apply a modification to the utilization and treating it as if it was a boil addition. At some point we will be revisiting this feature and taking a different approach, as right now we're independantly treating a boil addition as if it stops isomerizing completely as soon as the boil ends, while also calculating a meaningful IBU contribution from a whirlpool addition. In reality, both the whirlpool addition AND the boiled hop will continue to isomerize.

Additionally the kettle geometry places a part here as well, as the hop oils stick to the kettle walls. This was largely ignored and tried to be combined with the boil off factor, following the assumption that the difference in the "standard" range of brew kettles is not significant enough to be worth chasing as a separate variable. But it is known non the less to be a contributing factor.

Thank you for this very comprehensive explanation. Tell me please if I understand you when I understand that for problem 1 you apply default a utilization factor for each non boil addition — e.g. 5% for Hop Stand — and that these factors can be overwritten by the values the user declares in their equipment's setup.
 
without going too deep into the somewhat poorly researched outdated science,

Lol...yeah...I'll second THAT!

Behind Experimental Brewing log in is a nice long article on this very thing and their podcast were they interviewed Dr. Tinseth who himself said it was a ballpark equation!
  1. Episode 32 - The IBU Is A Lie
    ... of the episode - the man behind the equation - Dr. Glenn Tinseth. We tackle a few more of your questions in our Q&A segment and ... Video:
    Tinseth's Hops Page: http://realbeer.com/hops/ Eight Flavors - The ...

    drew - 01/18/2017 - 00:01 - 1 comment

  2. The IBU is a LIE! Kind of.....
    ... to calculate the IBUs on the fly? Here’s why – Glenn Tinseth’s equations, which are the defacto current standard, depend on three ... us because we’d forgotten it until we interviewed Dr. Tinseth – the equations and curves were built around whole cone hops only. No ...

    DennyAndDrew - 06/23/2017 - 13:22 - 1 comment

  3. My inter-Papaisien advice...RDWHAHB
 
Thank you for this very comprehensive explanation. Tell me please if I understand you when I understand that for problem 1 you apply default a utilization factor for each non boil addition — e.g. 5% for Hop Stand — and that these factors can be overwritten by the values the user declares in their equipment's setup.
Kinda the reverse.

Your equipment profile works as the default,so a hopstand utilization of 5% will be used for all hop stand additions as they're added to the recipe. But you can change that value as much as you wish, for each ingredient for each recipe if you so desire.

Right now the utilization overrides the calculated utilization, in the future at some point this will change slightly and switch to a variable coefficient, based on temperature and time for the overall process and not just the hop addition time, that is applied to the expected ibus if the hop were boiled instead of added to a whirlpool addition.
 
Kinda the reverse.

Your equipment profile works as the default,so a hopstand utilization of 5% will be used for all hop stand additions as they're added to the recipe. But you can change that value as much as you wish, for each ingredient for each recipe if you so desire.

I have a little bit trouble understanding because in my equipment there is no value declared for Hop Stand and the value that is displayed in the recipe is 5% when I chose «Hop Stand» with a time but without declaring a temperature.

The equipment profile doesn't seems to be the default.

But if I declare 10% in the equipment it is taken into account in the recipe and overwrites the 5% (that comes from the software)
If I enter a time and a temperature it is recalculated but is neither 5% nor the value declared in the equipment.
I can also change the value directly into the recipe that's true. In such a case it is taken as it and time and temperature are ignored.
 
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These are all good questions, and I am learning new things!
 

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