Condensation (?) on plastic kegs.

[Brewdomestix]

I have five of the same brand 2 gallon plastic kegs. So called 'budget' although certainly didn't seem cheap to me for what they physically are. Starting to represent a false economy in my eyes.

Like many other brewers, I have had problems with taps leaking but this isn't about a tap issue and I have never had the same issue with a 5gal keg albeit not had one of those in this brand. For over a year now (since I got them) these kegs occasionally seem to leak out of the base if the kidneys are swollen. Previously I have vented at the cap without noticeable relief on the kidneys, basically once they are swollen that's it until you have poured a few to several pints. So it obviously can still be a pressure issue. These things are fitted (soldered) together from two halves ala easter eggs.

Now I am not so sure they leak. Twice with the latest example that is one of two exactly same kegs filled on the same day with exactly the same beer as low primed as I can go without expecting it to be flat (1/4 oz) the following observations/actions:

Noticed soak up pad underneath barrel was wet after smelling beer.
Noticed kidneys clearly swollen on affected keg whilst only minimally on the other keg without any dampness on 2nd pad.
Both kegs were spirit levelled on shelving several feet above ground level (i.e. not on floor).
Rinsed the affected pad which clearly had soaked up beer.
Moved barrel from store room to cool kitchen without any type of heat going on in there.
Wiped and dried base of keg and placed directly onto worktop minus pad.
Left for roughly 10 minutes.
Lifted keg - dry underneath.
Repeated and for longer periods - still no noticeable moisture.
Replaced keg in store room on soak up pads.
A few days later same problem re-occured so have repeated process yesterday with same results.
Keg is currently in store/cool room for 24 hours and still dry on pads (I used double thickness this time).

This seems a slightly silly question to ask but: is it possible for condensation to draw beer out through plastic without actually leaking as such? I am thinking element of porousness here. There is a seam running across the bottom which does not look at all split when the kidneys are swollen. The moisture/wetness tends to be more towards the front/tap side of the base.

Any experience and/or thoughts on the matter welcome.

 

[Minbari]

 

[Donoroto]

I have five of the same brand 2 gallon plastic kegs. So called 'budget' although certainly didn't seem cheap to me for what they physically are. Starting to represent a false economy in my eyes.

Like many other brewers, I have had problems with taps leaking but this isn't about a tap issue and I have never had the same issue with a 5gal keg albeit not had one of those in this brand. For over a year now (since I got them) these kegs occasionally seem to leak out of the base if the kidneys are swollen. Previously I have vented at the cap without noticeable relief on the kidneys, basically once they are swollen that's it until you have poured a few to several pints. So it obviously can still be a pressure issue. These things are fitted (soldered) together from two halves ala easter eggs.

Now I am not so sure they leak. Twice with the latest example that is one of two exactly same kegs filled on the same day with exactly the same beer as low primed as I can go without expecting it to be flat (1/4 oz) the following observations/actions:

Noticed soak up pad underneath barrel was wet after smelling beer.
Noticed kidneys clearly swollen on affected keg whilst only minimally on the other keg without any dampness on 2nd pad.
Both kegs were spirit levelled on shelving several feet above ground level (i.e. not on floor).
Rinsed the affected pad which clearly had soaked up beer.
Moved barrel from store room to cool kitchen without any type of heat going on in there.
Wiped and dried base of keg and placed directly onto worktop minus pad.
Left for roughly 10 minutes.
Lifted keg - dry underneath.
Repeated and for longer periods - still no noticeable moisture.
Replaced keg in store room on soak up pads.
A few days later same problem re-occured so have repeated process yesterday with same results.
Keg is currently in store/cool room for 24 hours and still dry on pads (I used double thickness this time).

This seems a slightly silly question to ask but: is it possible for condensation to draw beer out through plastic without actually leaking as such? I am thinking element of porousness here. There is a seam running across the bottom which does not look at all split when the kidneys are swollen. The moisture/wetness tends to be more towards the front/tap side of the base.

Any experience and/or thoughts on the matter welcome.

No. Water molecules are far too large to 'weep' through plastic.

If you are sure it is beer, it must be coming from the opening at top. Wrap a strip of paper around to see that it came from above the seam.

What do you mean by Kidney?

 

[west1m]

Pictures?

 

[Brewdomestix]

Pictures?

Afraid not, I still don't have a camera these days although it is on my to do list without being a major priority. Ideally to use for positive things though. I doubt I would have been able to photograph the affected parts in this case anyway other than place the keg on top of a glass table and lay underneath it.

 

[Brewdomestix]

No. Water molecules are far too large to 'weep' through plastic.

If you are sure it is beer, it must be coming from the opening at top. Wrap a strip of paper around to see that it came from above the seam.

What do you mean by Kidney?

Like I wrote, it did seem a silly question but could not think of anything else beyond what I have gone through. Thanks for ruling that out though.

It definitely was beer but was just about contained in the soak pad.

By kidneys I mean the two sides on the underneath of the base - they are shaped like kidneys with a gap between - it isn't a plain flat surface.

Yes, like you suggest, I already do wrap strips of kitchen paper around the tap joint and lug the tap entrance with same as I have had problems in both those areas. Both are bone dry this time. It is one of those kegs with a tap near the base and I just use natural carbonation as it isn't worth wasting a gas bulb on 2 gallons that will mostly if not alll get drank before it goes flat.

The beer may possibly be seeping very slowly out of a tiny hole somewhere on the seam. No apparent moisture since I put the keg back in the store room but I didn't lift it as I don't want to disturb more than absolutely necessary. I will try and monitor this at least daily rather than periodically.

I only filled this keg precisely four weeks ago. A few more weeks and I would have brought it through to open earlier than the planned three months. If it gets really bad I will transfer it to another that has since been emptied and add a little more primer - that's worked fine before. I shouldn't lose much beer but the keg is on borrowed time.

 

[Ward Chillington]

You mentioned the absorbing pads smelling like beer? Is that right?

 

[Brewdomestix]

You mentioned the absorbing pads smelling like beer? Is that right?

I mentioned that I smelled beer and that upon checking the store room discovered the soak up pad was wet. It did smell of beer and the water ran brown as I rinsed and squeezed it out.

Further information which may or may not be of interest to anybody (such as beginners) now or in the future:
I get condensation on the cold water supply pipe in that room which has previously caused damp up the wall - now cured since I moved the shelving to the opposite wall and placed a dehumidifier in there a couple of years back. This has dried out the air a bit. It has poor ventilation in there (as do all the corresponding apartment flats in the same block of which I am on the ground floor) so I leave the store room door open sometimes. This can obviously affect the ambient temperatures.

I have been trying to consider all these factors since these occasional leaks on the base have occured over the last 12 months or so. It hasn't occured on all of the barrels of the same brand though so could be a case of some coming from a faulty batch.

The seller of the kegs (since out of business) was very quick to replace one with a possibly faulty tap without quibble or needing to see the product. Upon removal of that tap it had clearly been cross threaded when put together. The manufacture of the kegs went out of business several months before that but they are also still on sale from my current seller which has gone out of business but returned with the same name and taken over the previous seller referred to above, and is coincidentally (? - I haven't substantiated a connection there) located in the same town of the original keg manufacturer subsequently taken over by the one previously mentioned above. I have one of the originals and had no issues whatsoever with that keg since buying approximately 15 years ago albeit a different size (5 gallon). All of which leaves me trying to read between the lines.

I accept going the budget route is always a risk on quality hence in most circumstances I will veer to superior models. But I had measurements of available space and consumption to take into consideration and these particular kegs fitted the picture. Cost was a secondary matter.

Going through my notes these base leaks haven't occured between May and the last few weeks during which the temperature has dropped considerably a couple of times with a hard frost outside at the point of the latest leak.

Perhaps this is a case of pressure from both inside (carbonation) and outside (extreme cold) causing a leak a bit like when you get, dare I mention it with the temperature now starting to go back up a little; burst pipes. Maybe the materials just aren't up to the job as I have had issues with taps on all of this brand but two of them are at least okay on the bottom and the taps are currently doing okay so far. I use them on rotation with one free to go to (ala Jethro Tull) if I get major issues which require emptying before fixing. I also now have acquired 10 mini-kegs which I am already gradually shifting towards - all good on that front touch wood.

I haven't lost a lot of beer at all. There aren't as many thirsty flies around in winter either. So keeping things in perspective; it isn't a total disaster just a PITA I could do without.

 

[Brewdomestix]

UPDATE:
This keg (No1) is now empty so I dug out the other (No2) with the same only more severe problem and did some testing and comparing.

As with my comments earlier; the taps/washer seals are dry on both kegs. The taps are also different styles to each other.

This IS a base issue in both cases.

Filled with cold water sealed and shaken to create a minimum of pressure; I detected moisture towards the front on the underneath of the base of No1 after an hour following repeated checks. I laid it on its side without being able to see actual droplets of water. I certainly can't locate a specific leak within that time though. Unfortunately I didn't have several hours to play with to keep coming back to this job. Repeating myself yet again so apologies for that but firmly believe this is some form of pinhole leak in the seam. The seam runs across the kidneys and the raised gap between them which slops downwards to the front and back of the keg but is somewhat altered upon the swelling of the kidneys.

No2 was leaking visible droplets of water in the same general area as the moisture on No1 after only around 5 minutes. Upon lifting the keg with one hand and placing my other hand underneath, I could clearly feel seeping leaked water which was way more than condensation could have produced in that brief time. The beer leaks from this one in the store room around a year ago were horrendous even after an attempt at hot knifing the seam and sticking extra strength duck tap along the seam. Hence I stored it away for the future - if nothing else it has a spare tap and cap.

After studying No2 stood upright, I then placed it on its side with the seam both horizontal and then vertical. Horizontally small droplets of water gathered on the bottom side within the gap between the kidneys but without being able to see precisely where it was coming from. Placed with the seam vertically, the water droplets ran off in that direction. Again I could not locate the specific place(s) water was coming from.

My next batch due out of the fermenter is a stout. I shall fill No1 with the stout, dropping the priming slightly more again and hope that it holds. This is reasonably safe with minimal waste as I have successfully bottled previously leaking kegged beer with good results. Nice and dark, stout might possibly show where the leaks come from more precisely. Photographing would only be realistic with the kegs laid on their side or as I explained above from underneath a glass table which I no longer possess. Rather on seeing any leaks on the pads, I shall hold the keg above my head in the standard upright position, study it then transfer to No2 and repeat the operation.

I am considering contacting my current homebrew supplier who stock these for information purposes only. I can't leave a review on their site for equipment I bought somewhere else. The supplier I bought them from being out of business along with the actual manufacturer. This is unfortunate from the perspective of an unsuspecting beginner whom could be seriously discouraged through such experiences. Please don't be.

I would personally recommend 1 galllon aluminium mini-kegs (if not opting for bottling) to any such person reading this on a tight budget. I plan to run updates on a separate thread about my experiences with mini-kegs which have so far (approximately 6 months) been free of such problems discussed here.

No1 might still come in useful for storing treated water. The leakage on that one re: water would be relatively easy to contain. No2 would require repairing but that might be possible after the next round of experimenting.

 

[Donoroto]

UPDATE:
This keg (No1) is now empty so I dug out the other (No2) with the same only more severe problem and did some testing and comparing.

As with my comments earlier; the taps/washer seals are dry on both kegs. The taps are also different styles to each other.

This IS a base issue in both cases.

Filled with cold water sealed and shaken to create a minimum of pressure; I detected moisture towards the front on the underneath of the base of No1 after an hour following repeated checks. I laid it on its side without being able to see actual droplets of water. I certainly can't locate a specific leak within that time though. Unfortunately I didn't have several hours to play with to keep coming back to this job. Repeating myself yet again so apologies for that but firmly believe this is some form of pinhole leak in the seam. The seam runs across the kidneys and the raised gap between them which slops downwards to the front and back of the keg but is somewhat altered upon the swelling of the kidneys.

No2 was leaking visible droplets of water in the same general area as the moisture on No1 after only around 5 minutes. Upon lifting the keg with one hand and placing my other hand underneath, I could clearly feel seeping leaked water which was way more than condensation could have produced in that brief time. The beer leaks from this one in the store room around a year ago were horrendous even after an attempt at hot knifing the seam and sticking extra strength duck tap along the seam. Hence I stored it away for the future - if nothing else it has a spare tap and cap.

After studying No2 stood upright, I then placed it on its side with the seam both horizontal and then vertical. Horizontally small droplets of water gathered on the bottom side within the gap between the kidneys but without being able to see precisely where it was coming from. Placed with the seam vertically, the water droplets ran off in that direction. Again I could not locate the specific place(s) water was coming from.

My next batch due out of the fermenter is a stout. I shall fill No1 with the stout, dropping the priming slightly more again and hope that it holds. This is reasonably safe with minimal waste as I have successfully bottled previously leaking kegged beer with good results. Nice and dark, stout might possibly show where the leaks come from more precisely. Photographing would only be realistic with the kegs laid on their side or as I explained above from underneath a glass table which I no longer possess. Rather on seeing any leaks on the pads, I shall hold the keg above my head in the standard upright position, study it then transfer to No2 and repeat the operation.

I am considering contacting my current homebrew supplier who stock these for information purposes only. I can't leave a review on their site for equipment I bought somewhere else. The supplier I bought them from being out of business along with the actual manufacturer. This is unfortunate from the perspective of an unsuspecting beginner whom could be seriously discouraged through such experiences. Please don't be.

I would personally recommend 1 galllon aluminium mini-kegs (if not opting for bottling) to any such person reading this on a tight budget. I plan to run updates on a separate thread about my experiences with mini-kegs which have so far (approximately 6 months) been free of such problems discussed here.

No1 might still come in useful for storing treated water. The leakage on that one re: water would be relatively easy to contain. No2 would require repairing but that might be possible after the next round of experimenting.

Some kind of food-safe sealant - like silicone caulk - might do the trick.

But at least you know why.

 

[Brewdomestix]

Some kind of food-safe sealant - like silicone caulk - might do the trick.

But at least you know why.

Thanks, I will look into that. I use petroleum jelly around the taps. That doesn't completely stop leaks but it at least slows them down. Duhh, I don't why I didn't think to try it regarding this problem. Guess the whole thing just wore me down over time. But yeah knowing is not a bad place to be.

 

[Minbari]

Just my $0.02, but call it a loss and get something else. Those things sound like they will just continue to leak and require constant attention.

Cut bait and get something else. You can find ball lock kegs for under $100

 

[Brewdomestix]

Just had a slight tap leak on one of the otherwise still good kegs from this range. Dug out the two dud kegs that I had saved for spare handles, caps and taps just in case. Now thoroughly dried out I have finally got to the root of the problem.

Base of 2 Gallon keg model showing joining seal running vertically and 'kidneys' situated horizontally which can swell up with pressure and raise the outer ring (which the keg usually sits on) off the shelving/work surface causing the keg to wobble unstably at extremes.

Unsuccessfullly repaired keg. First the soldered seam then the left end of the upper kidney which I had later (correctly) isolated as the point liquid was leaking from.

Opposite kidney on a different keg showing split at same corresponding point (top of picture).

So back then at time of original post I eventually located the correct point from which the leaks on the base are/were occurring. These points on the kidneys are clearly a weakness of this model of keg.

Fortunately, around 18 months on I haven't experienced any more leaks off the base from the two remaining kegs still in use - each holding beer for 3-6 months. This is at least partly down to using the BF priming calculator for each batch of specific beer styles rather than the original generic advice I had to hand previously

 

[Donoroto]

Hm. I wonder if some sort of reinforcement for that area might be useful. I'm thinking along the lines of dipping it in epoxy resin or something, but I suspect that having anything stick well to the keg's plastic would be a challenge. I guess if it fits tightly enough, whatever it is, it would support the whole system and prevent those kidneys from busting a gut.