Belgian Blonde Ale (La Chouffe Clone) Sickly sweet

[BaconsBrew]

Hey everyone. Newbie here! Just tried a Belgian blonde I brewed 4 weeks ago. 2 weeks bottle conditioned. La chouffe clone from YouTube. I need some advice. This is my 4th ever brew


Recipe: (22L)
5kg Bohemian Pilsner
1Kg Table Sugar
100g Saaz Hops
5mL lactic acid
50g Coriander Seeds (5m)

Mashed for 60m @ 67*C, mashed out at 70*C, ensured I recirculated the wort 5 times.

Fermented using WL570 @ 20-22*C for 2 weeks.

OG: 1.060
FG: 1.005
ABV: 7.2%

Taste: Strong aroma of dark fruits and ripe banana, hint of coriander. Strong dark fruit taste with toasted malt and caramel, strong sickly honey after-taste, with faint yeast after taste. Strong after-burn.

Mouthfeel: Creamy medium-bodied but with sickly-sweet afterburn, poor head-retention.

Im just wondering what I could do differently next time to get rid of that sickly
-sweet after taste and strong afterburn. It makes it hard to finish as it gets quite a lot. Should I have primed with more sugar? The head retention is quite poor, almost disappeared totally after 5 minutes.

I’m hoping another 2 weeks of bottle conditioning might tame the sickly sweet and after burn. What do people think?

 

[Minbari]

More head retention is usually a function of higher protein levels. Higher mash temp or addition of something like flaked oats or white wheat will help.

How long did you boil and did you get a good vigorous boil?
How are you measuring your OG and FG? If it didn't finish, all that sugar could be left. 2.2lbs of sugar is allot

And finally, yes give it some more time. I usually waited 4-6 weeks on something like that. Its a really light beer with allot of ABV in it.

 

[BaconsBrew]

More head retention is usually a function of higher protein levels. Higher mash temp or addition of something like flaked oats or white wheat will help.

How long did you boil and did you get a good vigorous boil?
How are you measuring your OG and FG? If it didn't finish, all that sugar could be left. 2.2lbs of sugar is allot

And finally, yes give it some more time. I usually waited 4-6 weeks on something like that. Its a really light beer with allot of ABV in it.

I measured using a standard glass hydrometer before pitching the yeast, made sure to spin it to remove air bubbles. I achieved the desired final gravity according to the recipe I followed.

I boiled for 90 minutes, lid off, good vigorous boil. There was a bit of sugar scorched slightly at the bottom, I wonder did the caramelisation add extra sweetness to the brew.

In terms of the mash, would a longer protein rest improve the head retention? I only left it for about 10 minutes at 70*C. I like the idea of flaked oats, I’m from Ireland and we add flaked oats to our stouts and whiskeys for head retention or mouthfeel!

 

[Minbari]

I measured using a standard glass hydrometer before pitching the yeast, made sure to spin it to remove air bubbles. I achieved the desired final gravity according to the recipe I followed.

I boiled for 90 minutes, lid off, good vigorous boil. There was a bit of sugar scorched slightly at the bottom, I wonder did the caramelisation add extra sweetness to the brew.

In terms of the mash, would a longer protein rest improve the head retention? I only left it for about 10 minutes at 70*C. I like the idea of flaked oats, I’m from Ireland and we add flaked oats to our stouts and whiskeys for head retention or mouthfeel!

Ok, just checking. Some people use a refractometer for FG and without correction, that don't work.

Not sure if the maillard reactions alter the sugar to it doesn't ferment. It will add some carmel and sweet taste to the finish product for sure

Actually a protein rest usually hurts head retention because of how it breaks the proteins down. I always do one, because i think it has other benefits that outweigh head retention.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Yup that's an anomaly the recipe looks good in theory the yeast will consume the sucrose from the table sugar first then move onto the maltose.
Maybe it is a contribution of the caramelised sugars on the bottom of the kettle I know whenever I've burnt the wort on my element it's super noticeable but your using direct fire from propane/LPG?

So the hot burn turns me to yeast fermentation temperature that can cause the higher alcohols to come across harsh or More so hot.

I agree that some time will help this Belgian alot maybe leave it for a couple of weeks and come back to it.

Brew something mores sessionable in the meantime then come back to it when you get bored

 

[Steve SPF]

I know nothing about Belgian beers other than I like them, so am deinitely not an expert here. La Chouffe are brilliant brewers though, anyone who gets the chance should thry their beers. The Cherry Chouffe is amazing, it's 8% ABV and just so soft and easy to drink.

First off I would say that those are complex beers that are going to be very tricky to replicate.

As for this particular recipe I would say that what stands out for me is all that sugar. I'm sure you wouldn't hit OG without it but 1kg sugar in a 6kg grain bill looks massive.

As @Trialben says, if you burned it you are going to taste it and with so much sugar I would expect sweetness to dominate the flavour.

For head retention, as has been said wheat will help. We use 5% ish torrefied wheat in absolutely everything here and head retention is good. Also, don't overlook glassware when thinking about head retention. Oats will bring moutheel yes, we use malted naked oats now but woudln't hesitate to use porridge oats in a pinch!

Mash temp and yeast choice look good - although I know zero about that yeast.

I don't brew lagers so wouldn't know for sure, but the grain bill looks very simple and La Chouffe brew very complex beers. Personally I would leave out the sugar and have a look for some complexity elsewhere. What does coriander bring?

 

[Sandy Feet]

I don't generally make strong beers. The head retention could be two things: 1. Carbonation. You might have under-carbonated. The Belgians get up there with the carbonation (make sure you have the right bottles). 2. Protein. I also like to use a little wheat. Others use Cara Pils.
The burning is probably too much sugar. Not sure about the honey unless you fermented at some undesirable temperatures. I don't use lactic acid in anything, so maybe that is an issue? I don't know.

 

[Zambi]

Like Steve and Ben, I don't see much wrong in your recipe.
20% sugar is a bit on the high side, but not uncommon for Belgians.
I do like La chouffe, but do find it a little sweeter than a lot of the other Belgian beers

For Belgian clones, I would suggest that you use google translate and visit the Belgian and Dutch home brew forums

 

[Sandy Feet]

I was thinking this morning (imagine that), and I wanted to throw out a couple of more things:
Some of the Belgian beers benefit from time, ESPECIALLY Saisons. It doesn't sound like it is that old, so yes, give it some time in the bottles.
Second, your first few recipes should be somewhat simple or forgiving while you learn what certain hops, yeasts, and grains do to beer. Belgians are simple, but you need to get used to what the yeast does and your temperatures for that yeast.
My first few in the bag were with S-05 and Cascade. I did a Brown Ale, A Pale Ale, and an American Porter all with the same hops and yeast so I could learn about what my set-up does (efficiency, etc.). That way, I wasn't massively disappointed when I F d up trying to make something I wasn't ready for yet.
I love LaChouffe, but I don't drink a lot of 8% beer. I might not get the same thing as they do in Europe, but it seems like a very strong Blonde Ale with the yeast giving it a twist. I don't get a whole lot of complexity (at least with the Blonde), but I might be getting old versions too. I can taste the sugar, but it definitely doesn't burn. Maybe put in more grain the next time and reduce the sugar to see what that does if that is truly what you want to make.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I'm like Steve, I don't brew many Belgians, but occasionally I enjoy one. As far as the amount of sugar, I would argue that in a Belgian it belongs in there to dry out the beer. Your attenuation is great on this beer (91%) and it possible that the alcohol is lending a sweetness to the beer. I brewed a Triple a few years back and had great attenuation. It wasn't hot or burning, even at 9% alcohol, but it did have a sweetness in the finish despite having @ 90% AA. I assumed it was something from the yeast.

Belgians are difficult beers to brew, IMHO. I think they're as hard or harder than German Lagers.

 

[Donoroto]

I think your sweet taste is from the overheated malt on the bottom of the kettle.

I have a Brewzilla electric all-in-one that has two heating elements, one 500 watts and the other 1900 watts. The instructions state to never use the 1900 watt element during mashing, as this can scorch the wort and cause a sickly-sweet flavor.

As for the alcohol "after burn", perhaps these are fusel alcohols, formed by iver-warm yeast. Just a guess though. Your 20-22 degrees is perfect for wlp570, so I am stumped.

 

[BaconsBrew]

I know nothing about Belgian beers other than I like them, so am deinitely not an expert here. La Chouffe are brilliant brewers though, anyone who gets the chance should thry their beers. The Cherry Chouffe is amazing, it's 8% ABV and just so soft and easy to drink.

First off I would say that those are complex beers that are going to be very tricky to replicate.

As for this particular recipe I would say that what stands out for me is all that sugar. I'm sure you wouldn't hit OG without it but 1kg sugar in a 6kg grain bill looks massive.

As @Trialben says, if you burned it you are going to taste it and with so much sugar I would expect sweetness to dominate the flavour.

For head retention, as has been said wheat will help. We use 5% ish torrefied wheat in absolutely everything here and head retention is good. Also, don't overlook glassware when thinking about head retention. Oats will bring moutheel yes, we use malted naked oats now but woudln't hesitate to use porridge oats in a pinch!

Mash temp and yeast choice look good - although I know zero about that yeast.

I don't brew lagers so wouldn't know for sure, but the grain bill looks very simple and La Chouffe brew very complex beers. Personally I would leave out the sugar and have a look for some complexity elsewhere. What does coriander bring?

Thanks for you're reply! Actually most belgian beer recipes contain belgian candi sugar, I went for plain as it is cheaper and supposedly the flavour difference is very subtle. I think maybe it could be some fusels? I remember after one night of very active fermentation it went up to 25 degrees but that was only for a few hours, cooled it back down to 20 and kept it there for the rest of the fermentation. Fingers crossed a bit more maturing will mellow it a bit.

 

[BaconsBrew]

I think your sweet taste is from the overheated malt on the bottom of the kettle.

I have a Brewzilla electric all-in-one that has two heating elements, one 500 watts and the other 1900 watts. The instructions state to never use the 1900 watt element during mashing, as this can scorch the wort and cause a sickly-sweet flavor.

As for the alcohol "after burn", perhaps these are fusel alcohols, formed by iver-warm yeast. Just a guess though. Your 20-22 degrees is perfect for wlp570, so I am stumped.

I kept it at the 500 watts for mashing, there was definitely some scorch so maybe that contributed, hoping maturation will tame it!

Thanks for your help

 

[BaconsBrew]

Yup that's an anomaly the recipe looks good in theory the yeast will consume the sucrose from the table sugar first then move onto the maltose.
Maybe it is a contribution of the caramelised sugars on the bottom of the kettle I know whenever I've burnt the wort on my element it's super noticeable but your using direct fire from propane/LPG?

So the hot burn turns me to yeast fermentation temperature that can cause the higher alcohols to come across harsh or More so hot.

I agree that some time will help this Belgian alot maybe leave it for a couple of weeks and come back to it.

Brew something mores sessionable in the meantime then come back to it when you get bored

Could be some fusels alright, one night of very active fermentation sent it to 24 degrees, cooled it down and kept it there but maybe that was enough to contribute some fusels.

 

[Donoroto]

Could be some fusels alright, one night of very active fermentation sent it to 24 degrees, cooled it down and kept it there but maybe that was enough to contribute some fusels.

24 is the top end for the yeast, so it shoulda been ok, but who knows?

 

[Sandy Feet]

I have both the good and bad of simplicity. I don't have to worry about burning anything as I get to strike temp and take the kettle off the heat to mash. In the few weeks here when it is actually cold, that takes some guess work, but in the other 48 or 49 weeks, it works.
I would love to hear what happens when you brew v.2. Most of my second versions turned out better with a few adjustments.
I'm going to try another Saison when I can actually get a weekend off. This is going to be a learning experience because the brew store doesn't carry the French strain that I want, and my other store is out of business. It will also be my first fruit beer other than Pumpkin with BIAB.

 

[Craigerrr]

Do you have temperature control for fermentation?
If you are going by room temperature the wort can easily be 2-4 degrees higher during fermentation.

 

[BaconsBrew]

Do you have temperature control for fermentation?
If you are going by room temperature the wort can easily be 2-4 degrees higher during fermentation.

I have a strip thermometer on the side of the bucket, I can control the temperature a little with a heat band around it, if it gets too warm I turn it off and open the door to the room to let a draft in.

 

[coreyman]

Thanks for you're reply! Actually most belgian beer recipes contain belgian candi sugar, I went for plain as it is cheaper and supposedly the flavour difference is very subtle. I think maybe it could be some fusels? I remember after one night of very active fermentation it went up to 25 degrees but that was only for a few hours, cooled it back down to 20 and kept it there for the rest of the fermentation. Fingers crossed a bit more maturing will mellow it a bit.

This was exactly what I came here to say. Use Belgian Candi Sugar instead of the regular sugar and your beer will come out a lot better. You can make Belgian Candi Sugar on the stovetop with a candy thermometer and some cream of tartar, tartaric acid, or lemon juice. I do it all the time. It turns out to be just as cheap since you aren't really using much acid each time you make it. I never buy the premade stuff. It takes about 30 minutes to make.

https://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/how-to-make-belgian-candi-sugar/

 

[BaconsBrew]

**UPDATE**

Just tried a bottle after an additional two weeks bottle conditioning at 20 degrees celsius. Completely different beer, no sickly sweet taste, no after burn, better head retention and completely cleaned up the off-tastes. If anything it dangerously tastes like a lower abv beer. Really nice beer, very drinkable and not a bad clone to La Chouffe!