Adding yeast to bottle condition: Carb Disaster

[THops]

So, first time adding yeast to bottle condition a Belgian beer. Big disaster --WAY WAY over carbonated. Would have been bottle bombs (and still might be), but I opened and re-capped them last night after the bottles all gushed out. (Not sure if the beer will be drinkable, though with low hops I figure I might have a chance.)

I used Philly Sour dry yeast for the first time and it worked quite well. Made an approachable fruit sour in just weeks. OG 1.064 and FG 1.012, with two extra weeks (total of 4) in the fermenter to condition (FG was unchanged/stable for two weeks).

Philly Sour (Lallemand) said I needed to use Lallemand CBC-1 Cask and Bottle CONDITIONING yeast if I wanted to bottle condition, so I did, along with the sugar I calculated I needed (5.5 ounces) in the bottling bucket.

So, what went wrong? I did pitch two packets of Philly Sour into my 5.5 gallon batch, so I'm thinking I actually had plenty of yeast and no need for the CBC-1?

Is there a way to know if you need to pitch extra yeast? Maybe it needed to be higher OG than 1.064?

I do want to try again with CBC-1 for a Belgian Quad this summer, but now I'm freaked out that I will have bottle bombs...

Thanks for your help!

 

[Hawkbox]

5.5 ounces in a 5 gallon batch feels ton of priming sugar in what little bottling I did. I've never tried Philly sour but I imagine it would be more than adequate, I'm curious why they recommend that too.

Can you take one of the bottles and check what your SG is right now? Maybe the new yeast ate up sugars the philly sour left behind in addition to the priming sugar?

Belgian beers are also usually a lot more carbed than "normal" beers so that might be it too.

 

[Craigerrr]

I have never added yeast at packaging, so I can't help with this.
It would seem to me though that whether you add yeast at packaging or not, it should only go to work on the available sugars.
If the original yeast had under attenuated, leaving fermentable sugars, this could explain the over carbonation.
I suspect that others may have more helpful advice.

 

[THops]

I have never added yeast at packaging, so I can't help with this.
It would seem to me though that whether you add yeast at packaging or not, it should only go to work on the available sugars.
If the original yeast had under attenuated, leaving fermentable sugars, this could explain the over carbonation.
I suspect that others may have more helpful advice.

Thanks. It actually attenuated where I wanted it, but there were indeed some sugars left. I was shooting for 1.015 and it came in at 1.012. I am actually suspecting the added yeast, not the added sugar. Though it could be both.

 

[THops]

5.5 ounces in a 5 gallon batch feels ton of priming sugar in what little bottling I did. I've never tried Philly sour but I imagine it would be more than adequate, I'm curious why they recommend that too.

Can you take one of the bottles and check what your SG is right now? Maybe the new yeast ate up sugars the philly sour left behind in addition to the priming sugar?

Belgian beers are also usually a lot more carbed than "normal" beers so that might be it too.

Thanks. Yeah, I do think the new yeast ate up both the residual AND the new sugar. I actually was pretty suspicious about using bottling yeast. Just does not make a ton of sense to me, though I can see how it would be necessary for super high ABV beers. Maybe unless OG is in the high 1.070's or more it's not a good idea?

I think even if I had used 4.5 ounces of sugar I would still have been in trouble with this beer.

I think the current SG is all whacked, but I plan to drink one in a few, so I will get out the hydrometer and see what it tells me...

 

[Hawkbox]

It will be whacked because of the additional sugar, but if it is sitting 1.002 or something you know it went a bit nuts.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

The only time I add yeast when bottling is when the ABV is high or the beer was bulk-aged for 6+ months. One time I did not do this was on a Wee Heavy. Even after 2 years almost every bottle is extremely under-carbonated. Other than those two examples I can't think of any reason for add yeast when bottling.

 

[Sunfire96]

Are you using dextrose as a priming sugar? If so, I've found 1 oz per gallon is about right for 2.5 vol CO2(dependent on temp, of course). I'm a little confused about your FG. Initially you said it had sat for 2 weeks with an unchanged FG, but then you said there were definitely residual sugars left and that's why the beer was overcarbonated. If the SG was stable for 14 days, I would imagine that meant that all available sugars were eaten?

Also, I'm not sure additional yeast would contribute to extra carbonation since the sugar is the limiting factor here. If you put 1 gallon of gas into a 30 mpg car, you'll go 30 miles. If you split 1 gallon of gas equally between three 30 mpg cars, they'll each go 10 miles, but you'll still go 30 miles cumulatively. Adding more engines will never increase total distance when the gas is your limiting factor.

 

[Hawkbox]

From what I've been hearing about Philly sour it can tap out early, which if you throw a bottling yeast in afterward could potentially convert sugar the Philly didn't. That's my theory. (if you had some kerosene in the gas and then throw a diesel engine in to finish the trip. To completely ruin your analogy.)

 

[SabreSteve]

5.5 ounces in a 5 gallon batch feels ton of priming sugar in what little bottling I did. I've never tried Philly sour but I imagine it would be more than adequate, I'm curious why they recommend that too.

Can you take one of the bottles and check what your SG is right now? Maybe the new yeast ate up sugars the philly sour left behind in addition to the priming sugar?

Belgian beers are also usually a lot more carbed than "normal" beers so that might be it too.

By my guestimation that puts it at or around 3 volumes. I typically add between 3-5 oz (assuming you're using table sugar) for 5 gallons. You're a little higher but that shouldn't cause your issue. I'd agree has to be that the added yeast was able to ferment some of sugars that the original yeast couldn't. I really don't get the point of adding more yeast though unless you think the original yeast is dead...
If you really feel the need to add yeast at bottling maybe add it a day ahead of time and see if the SG changes just to be safe

 

[Sunfire96]

From what I've been hearing about Philly sour it can tap out early, which if you throw a bottling yeast in afterward could potentially convert sugar the Philly didn't. That's my theory. (if you had some kerosene in the gas and then throw a diesel engine in to finish the trip. To completely ruin your analogy.)

That makes sense, thank you! I definitely just had a lightbulb moment

 

[THops]

The only time I add yeast when bottling is when the ABV is high or the beer was bulk-aged for 6+ months. One time I did not do this was on a Wee Heavy. Even after 2 years almost every bottle is extremely under-carbonated. Other than those two examples I can't think of any reason for add yeast when bottling.

Thanks. That makes sense. The instructions from Philly Sour said I should use the bottling yeast. I've never used Philly Sour (or bottling yeast), so I thought I should follow the instructions, which I regret. I don't think the extra yeast was necessary...

 

[THops]

By my guestimation that puts it at or around 3 volumes. I typically add between 3-5 oz (assuming you're using table sugar) for 5 gallons. You're a little higher but that shouldn't cause your issue. I'd agree has to be that the added yeast was able to ferment some of sugars that the original yeast couldn't. I really don't get the point of adding more yeast though unless you think the original yeast is dead...
If you really feel the need to add yeast at bottling maybe add it a day ahead of time and see if the SG changes just to be safe

Yeah, I could maybe have gone with 5 ounces of sugar, but I agree it should not have caused the problem. I was just following the instructions from Philly Sour. For some reason they recommend using bottling yeast, and I just followed their instructions. Won't be adding bottling yeast next time...

 

[THops]

Are you using dextrose as a priming sugar? If so, I've found 1 oz per gallon is about right for 2.5 vol CO2(dependent on temp, of course). I'm a little confused about your FG. Initially you said it had sat for 2 weeks with an unchanged FG, but then you said there were definitely residual sugars left and that's why the beer was overcarbonated. If the SG was stable for 14 days, I would imagine that meant that all available sugars were eaten?

Also, I'm not sure additional yeast would contribute to extra carbonation since the sugar is the limiting factor here. If you put 1 gallon of gas into a 30 mpg car, you'll go 30 miles. If you split 1 gallon of gas equally between three 30 mpg cars, they'll each go 10 miles, but you'll still go 30 miles cumulatively. Adding more engines will never increase total distance when the gas is your limiting factor.

It was just cane sugar. I would guess that the Philly Sour ate all the sugars it could, but with the FG at 1.012, there were still residual sugars of course. The question is whether the bottling yeast ate those. It certainly ate the cane sugar. I wonder if you are supposed to drop the amount of priming sugar if you are using bottling yeast?

 

[THops]

It will be whacked because of the additional sugar, but if it is sitting 1.002 or something you know it went a bit nuts.

Hydrometer showed 1.008, so it appears the bottling yeast did get to the residual sugars a bit. But the culprit seems to be the bottling yeast + the priming sugar. The beer is drinkable and actually not bad -- the bottles are mostly 1/2 and 3/4 full now, though! I am hoping that any oxidation issues are minimal, given that I only used 3 ounces of hops.

 

[Zambi]

If I calculated correctly, you used about 8 gr/ ltr (I am imperially challenged).
I normally add something around that amount and haven't had a problem. I am used to highly carbed Belgians and pilsner.
Are all your bottles overcarbed?
Could it be that the sugar was not mixed properly when bottling? This could cause some bottles to overcarb and some under?
Weighing mistake?
If not, then it almost has to be the bottling yeast eating the residual sugar.

 

[Mark Farrall]

CBC-1 is rubbish at fermenting anything other than simple sugars. There's very little chance that it will ferment anything that the original yeast couldn't ferment, which is why it's sold as a bottling yeast. The 1.012 probably just meant that your wort was less fermentable than the recipe prediction. Happens all the time.

Sadly the only other ideas I have aren't that great. They're that you managed to get something other the CBC in the beer at bottling, or that you added more sugar than you expected or added it unevenly. I don't think there's been enough time for something with diastatic abilities to effect the beer, so I think that can be ignored. And you'd know better than me how possible the measuring error idea is.

As to why they'd recommend you use that, instead of the Philly Sour that would definitely be left in the beer, I can think of two reasons. There's the upselling angle, they get two yeasts for the one beer. Then there's the fact that it's a pretty slow fermenter, so brewers could get spooked having to wait for the bottle conditioning to finish (I've got one in the fermenter at the moment and it's taking forever).

I have added yeast for bottling, but it's when I've underpitched an imperial yeast or when I've had a sour aging for over 12 months. I'm not planning to pitch yeast for the conditioning of the batch I've got going at the moment.

And the movement from 1.012 to 1.008 is probably just the fermenting of the bottling sugar.

 

[THops]

CBC-1 is rubbish at fermenting anything other than simple sugars. There's very little chance that it will ferment anything that the original yeast couldn't ferment, which is why it's sold as a bottling yeast. The 1.012 probably just meant that your wort was less fermentable than the recipe prediction. Happens all the time.

Sadly the only other ideas I have aren't that great. They're that you managed to get something other the CBC in the beer at bottling, or that you added more sugar than you expected or added it unevenly. I don't think there's been enough time for something with diastatic abilities to effect the beer, so I think that can be ignored. And you'd know better than me how possible the measuring error idea is.

As to why they'd recommend you use that, instead of the Philly Sour that would definitely be left in the beer, I can think of two reasons. There's the upselling angle, they get two yeasts for the one beer. Then there's the fact that it's a pretty slow fermenter, so brewers could get spooked having to wait for the bottle conditioning to finish (I've got one in the fermenter at the moment and it's taking forever).

I have added yeast for bottling, but it's when I've underpitched an imperial yeast or when I've had a sour aging for over 12 months. I'm not planning to pitch yeast for the conditioning of the batch I've got going at the moment.

And the movement from 1.012 to 1.008 is probably just the fermenting of the bottling sugar.

Thanks for this info... A few clues I have gathered: CBC-1 is not good at fermenting maltotriose. And dextrose is recommended for priming. I just used table sugar, so maybe CBC-1 is good at fermenting fructose?

One thing I don't understand is that you CAN use CBC-1 for primary fermentation -- it just won't attenuate very well, as you noted.

It's possible I overpitched the Philly Sour. I wasn't sure on the cell count and didn't calculate it. I used two packets. It was still a slower fermentation than I've seen with most yeasts.

It IS possible that I measured the sugar incorrectly, I suppose (hard to know for sure). The priming sugar was dissolved, and all the bottles were overcarbed.

 

[SabreSteve]

Thanks for this info... A few clues I have gathered: CBC-1 is not good at fermenting maltotriose. And dextrose is recommended for priming. I just used table sugar, so maybe CBC-1 is good at fermenting fructose?

One thing I don't understand is that you CAN use CBC-1 for primary fermentation -- it just won't attenuate very well, as you noted.

It's possible I overpitched the Philly Sour. I wasn't sure on the cell count and didn't calculate it. I used two packets. It was still a slower fermentation than I've seen with most yeasts.

It IS possible that I measured the sugar incorrectly, I suppose (hard to know for sure). The priming sugar was dissolved, and all the bottles were overcarbed.

Sucrose is fine for priming. Some of the guys that have been around longer could shed some more light on it but basically from my understanding people prefer dextrose because of an old wives (or husbands) tale about sucrose. Some people think that sucrose gives off a cidery off-flavor but that was more likely caused by the types of yeast in early homebrewing kits. I'm not super experienced but I've used sucrose to prime every brew with no issues. I recommend it because compared to dextrose and DME (what my father-in-law primes with) it's cheap and readily available at any grocery store. Just my 2 cents. I don't think the sucrose is the problem. Just make sure the priming calculator is set to the right type of sugar

 

[THops]

Sucrose is fine for priming. Some of the guys that have been around longer could shed some more light on it but basically from my understanding people prefer dextrose because of an old wives (or husbands) tale about sucrose. Some people think that sucrose gives off a cidery off-flavor but that was more likely caused by the types of yeast in early homebrewing kits. I'm not super experienced but I've used sucrose to prime every brew with no issues. I recommend it because compared to dextrose and DME (what my father-in-law primes with) it's cheap and readily available at any grocery store. Just my 2 cents. I don't think the sucrose is the problem. Just make sure the priming calculator is set to the right type of sugar

Thanks for the thoughts -- I appreciate the discussion/feedback. Yeah, I tend to use cane sugar for most brewing needs... The question is whether CBC-1 works TOO well with cane sugar. It was actually the first time I used bottling yeast -- and it did not go well.