A thread for the confession of ones brewing eccentricies

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here is a collection of some of mine. I don't believe any of these to be new revelations of my eccentricity being unveiled here, as most if not all are to be found within other threads across this and a multitude of other brewing forums.

1) I believe that if one goes far enough back in brewing literature from yore, they will find that today's nearly universally accepted ideal mash pH midpoint target value of 5.40 was originally intended as a reading to be taken at an initial step mash temperature of 50 degrees C. This would be ~5.55 pH if measured at 20-25 degrees C. So I believe that the nominal "room temperature" measured ideal mash pH target should be changed to 5.55 pH.

2) I further believe (from a study of the same sources) that the adaptation of a room temperature measured target pH of 5.55 within the mash requires a second acidification adjustment whereby to hit a room temperature measured pH ideal of 5.2 just before entering into the boil step of the brewing process.

3) I believe that critical and reliable (as in independently repeatable) 'combined' buffering capacity and DI mash pH data does not exist for many hundreds (or even for tens) of brand specific malts, grains, and adjuncts. So I scoff at the inclusion of such "specific" data within software for every individual representative of such ingredients, and I call it what it is: outright lying whereby to impress the unaware.

4) I believe that existing software does not come even ballpark close to modeling the IBU's liberated into a Wort by specifically Pellet Hops. And I most particularly scoff at the contention that 1.1 times leaf,plug, or whole hops derived computation of IBU's= pellet hop IBU's.

5) I believe that ppm's (mg/L's) give a false indication of requisite Ca++ and Mg++ mineralization, and that mEq's should be universally accepted as a valid replacement for ppm's (mg/L's).

6) I believe that in highly buffered systems such as Wort a variation of the volume of ones Alkalinity and also mineral free mash water does not alter ones mash pH to nearly close to the degree that some highly popular software projects.

7) I believe that Alkalinity (as CaCo3) at or below 35 ppm (mg/L) is fine for sparging.

8) I believe that for the likes of light colored Pils, Pilsners, Lagers, and Ales 25-35 ppm Alkalinity is fine for mash water, and to both add sodium and mash at pH 5.55 I often add Baking Soda to my water built from RO accordingly.

9) I believe that ballpark 20-40 ppm of sodium (Na+) ions are flavor beneficial.

10) I believe that 4-10 ppm Mg++ is yeast beneficial, and will not be tasted in any beer containing 20 or more IBU's worth of hops.

These are probably my top 10 brewing eccentricities.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A bonus eccentricity: Alkalinity (or related Bicarbonate) containing water, when acidified to 5.4-5.6 pH, is not going to be analytically determined to be fully Alkalinity (or Bicarbonate) free. This can be seen as a subset of #7 and #8 above.

 

[Tim Bulin]

As far as the actual process , I always brew with water from the same well. I try to use recipes that work with what I have. On brew day my approach is more simply crank some tunes and “grip it and rip it” usually works out ok.

 

[naDinMN]

1. Water chemistry is for the birds. Give me some acidulated malt.

2. Never believe any advice you find on the internet that is more than 6 years old. It is out of date and has been disproved.

3. In my experience, liquid yeast is way more healthy than we've been led to believe and doesn't need to be treated with kid gloves.

3.1. Yeast expiration dates are total crap. I use them WELL past the date all the time.

4. Yeast pitch rates are stupid and based on outdated information, on a homebrew scale.

5. Beer, not homebrew. Milkshake IPA's aren't IPA's. Stop calling them that. Just stop.

 

[dmtaylor]

So, is this an eccentricities thread, or is it an unpopular opinions thread? I have many of both.

1) I agree with @naDinMN on many of his listed items, including: water chemistry is for the birds. I know more than enough about it... to know that I don't really care about it all that much. Get the chlorine out, use acid or malt to get your mash pH to about 5.5-5.6 (room temp), consider a pre-boil acid addition as discovered over the last few years with @Silver_Is_Money, and then... faggeddaboddit.

2) The sulfate to chloride ratio is a load of bullocks, as discussed in other threads by/with @Yooper. Whoever came up with this and promoted it should be shot.

3) I'm a small batch brewer. Typically I brew about 2 gallons, then split into two 1-gallon fermenters with 2 different yeasts and/or hops as experimentation. Why waste 5 gallons on experiments when you can just waste 1 gallon. And there are many many other advantages, some of which I'll go into here and some I will not...

4) So I still brew on my kitchen stove in 2 or more big pots. And regarding equipment...

5) I am a total minimalist. I don't own a chiller, no stirplate, no turkey fryer burners, no special fermentation fridges (ferment at ambient either upstairs or basement). I still bottle usually, except I just got a 1-gallon uKeg Go and I'll happily use that sometimes in future. I used to "crush" all my malt in a blender, did that for 3 years until I got a real mill and I love it. The blender worked just fine, won many medals with it so don't poo on it.

6) I am a malt-head and a yeast-head, not a hop-head. I love a great lager, German hefeweizens, Belgians, English styles, and generally anything without a ton of hops in it. I like a good IPA too, but I'm friggin tired of them. There's more to life. Brew something else you guys, for heavenssakes.

7) I am convinced that hundreds of millions of people love the aroma (and presumbly the taste) of cat pee. I have 3 cats. I don't like my litter box smelling exactly like IPA, that's just wrong.

8) I know and understand that mash TIME is way more important than mash temperature, at least within a goldilocks saccharification zone. And it affects fermentability/dextrins/FG much more than it effects efficiency (which is basically nothing, if your crush is good). About 15-16 years ago, I ran a lot of mash time experiments, and found a sweet spot in my process that a mash time of 40 minutes will give me normal fermentability every time. So I save 20+ minutes on every brew day as compared with the average brewer. Efficiency averages 85-90%, so with a good crush, no, that ain't a problem.

8) When designing recipes, I select yeast and mash TIME based on where I want the FG or ABV to end up. Every yeast is unique, even so-called "equivalents" from different manufacturers. US-05 for example will ferment out to about 83% on average, whereas WLP001 and 1056 will quit closer to 75%. Huge difference.

9) I spent more than 200 hours putting this yeast equivalency thing together, to "fix" everything that was wrong everywhere else on the interwebs. If that ain't eccentric, I don't know what is. Enjoy. If you have any feedback, send me a PM, and I'll consider it. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing

10) On the topic of IBUs, I do believe Tinseth is reasonably accurate, but you have to understand, he developed his equations using whole hops, and basically no-chill. Still, it's the closest we're going to get to reality, so I will continue using it. Along with that.... I've developed a super simple equation that will get you within 5-10 IBUs compared to Tinseth, AND it includes whirlpool/hop stand hops as well. Actually I have two methods which will give you about the same answer. So I am able to calculate IBUs in my head and/or on a napkin. But nobody cares, so I won't bore you with details.

11a) I do my diacetyl rests for 2-4 WEEKS, not days. Based on experience. IF you detect diacetyl, it takes way longer to get rid of than anyone else seems to know. Don't worry. It will age out. The yeast will eat it. Just keep your beer warm for a few WEEKS.

11b) Patience resolves a lot of problems, including diacetyl, and sulfur as well, in the same 2-4 week timeframe. Humans don't need to be involved at all. Just leave your friggin beer & yeast alone. They don't need your copper or your nutrients. Leave it a alone! I promise, by the 3rd or 4th week, 95% of the time anyway, the yeast has all of this cleaned up, all by themselves, while I just sit back lazy / patiently waiting for them to do so.

12) If I want body and head, I don't reach for Carapils, which is worthless and might as well be treated as a very slightly caramelized pilsner malt. In the quantities you're using it, Carapils doesn't do a damn thing. Reach instead for RYE. Either the malt or the flakes. 10-15% of rye is going to give you body and head like nothing else you've ever tried. Oats are as worthless as Carapils. Wheat is someplace in between. And don't worry...

13) Rye is NOT spicy. We ain't making liquid pumpernickel bread with caraway seeds here (well unless you really are adding the seeds!). Rye is bready and earthy, and it adds a dull blue-gray haze to the beer in higher amounts. But in small amounts like 10-15%, you won't notice much except a little haze or sheen maybe. But NOT spicy, ugh... you know.... spiciness comes from HOPS though.

14) When reviewing Brulosophy experiment results, understand what it means. If they can't find a difference between 2 beers, maybe there's still a difference. If I assume that the tasters there are all morons, then I figure anything with a p value <0.20 there might actually be a difference, in which case more experiments would be needed to help find out. But nobody tells you this. And conversely, when they can't find a difference, for heavenssakes, don't assume there's no difference!! The experiments don't tell you that!! They can't!! They're only looking for when there probably IS a difference, not the other way around!! It's complicated, until you put extra brain power into it. So anyway....... I've compiled a list of much of their experiment results, to see which ones have a p value more like <0.20, so that I can find places where maybe we need to run a few more experiments. And I suggest that maybe you might like to do the same thing too. Cheers.

15) Protein rests ruin good beer. So do enzymes. So does too much lactose. Or salt. Or Sour Patch Kids or Froot Loops. Knock it off, peeps. Get off my lawn.

Okay, that's definitely enough for one day. Have fun getting annoyed.

 

[Ward Chillington]

le.

5. Beer, not homebrew. Milkshake IPA's aren't IPA's. Stop calling them that. Just stop.

LOL...yeah...enough of the "childification" of beer. Are you drinking a beer or Fruit Looped Gummibeared Juicey Brutted Kiddie Cocktail? Meeayah...get off of my lawn as well!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Excellent list of eccentricities there Dave!

As to your #2 above, I believe the ratio mention goes back potentially as far as the 1930's and difinitively as far as the 1950's within peer reviewed brewing industry level dissertations. So likely there is no remaining need to 'execute' your plan.

 

[Megary]

So, is this an eccentricities thread, or is it an unpopular opinions thread? I have many of both.

1) I agree with @naDinMN on many of his listed items, including: water chemistry is for the birds. I know more than enough about it... to know that I don't really care about it all that much. Get the chlorine out, use acid or malt to get your mash pH to about 5.5-5.6 (room temp), consider a pre-boil acid addition as discovered over the last few years with @Silver_Is_Money, and then... faggeddaboddit.

2) The sulfate to chloride ratio is a load of bullocks, as discussed in other threads by/with @Yooper. Whoever came up with this and promoted it should be shot.

3) I'm a small batch brewer. Typically I brew about 2 gallons, then split into two 1-gallon fermenters with 2 different yeasts and/or hops as experimentation. Why waste 5 gallons on experiments when you can just waste 1 gallon. And there are many many other advantages, some of which I'll go into here and some I will not...

4) So I still brew on my kitchen stove in 2 or more big pots. And regarding equipment...

5) I am a total minimalist. I don't own a chiller, no stirplate, no turkey fryer burners, no special fermentation fridges (ferment at ambient either upstairs or basement). I still bottle usually, except I just got a 1-gallon uKeg Go and I'll happily use that sometimes in future. I used to "crush" all my malt in a blender, did that for 3 years until I got a real mill and I love it. The blender worked just fine, won many medals with it so don't poo on it.

6) I am a malt-head and a yeast-head, not a hop-head. I love a great lager, German hefeweizens, Belgians, English styles, and generally anything without a ton of hops in it. I like a good IPA too, but I'm friggin tired of them. There's more to life. Brew something else you guys, for heavenssakes.

7) I am convinced that hundreds of millions of people love the aroma (and presumbly the taste) of cat pee. I have 3 cats. I don't like my litter box smelling exactly like IPA, that's just wrong.

8) I know and understand that mash TIME is way more important than mash temperature, at least within a goldilocks saccharification zone. And it affects fermentability/dextrins/FG much more than it effects efficiency (which is basically nothing, if your crush is good). About 15-16 years ago, I ran a lot of mash time experiments, and found a sweet spot in my process that a mash time of 40 minutes will give me normal fermentability every time. So I save 20+ minutes on every brew day as compared with the average brewer. Efficiency averages 85-90%, so with a good crush, no, that ain't a problem.

8) When designing recipes, I select yeast and mash TIME based on where I want the FG or ABV to end up. Every yeast is unique, even so-called "equivalents" from different manufacturers. US-05 for example will ferment out to about 83% on average, whereas WLP001 and 1056 will quit closer to 75%. Huge difference.

9) I spent more than 200 hours putting this yeast equivalency thing together, to "fix" everything that was wrong everywhere else on the interwebs. If that ain't eccentric, I don't know what is. Enjoy. If you have any feedback, send me a PM, and I'll consider it. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing

10) On the topic of IBUs, I do believe Tinseth is reasonably accurate, but you have to understand, he developed his equations using whole hops, and basically no-chill. Still, it's the closest we're going to get to reality, so I will continue using it. Along with that.... I've developed a super simple equation that will get you within 5-10 IBUs compared to Tinseth, AND it includes whirlpool/hop stand hops as well. Actually I have two methods which will give you about the same answer. So I am able to calculate IBUs in my head and/or on a napkin. But nobody cares, so I won't bore you with details.

11a) I do my diacetyl rests for 2-4 WEEKS, not days. Based on experience. IF you detect diacetyl, it takes way longer to get rid of than anyone else seems to know. Don't worry. It will age out. The yeast will eat it. Just keep your beer warm for a few WEEKS.

11b) Patience resolves a lot of problems, including diacetyl, and sulfur as well, in the same 2-4 week timeframe. Humans don't need to be involved at all. Just leave your friggin beer & yeast alone. They don't need your copper or your nutrients. Leave it a alone! I promise, by the 3rd or 4th week, 95% of the time anyway, the yeast has all of this cleaned up, all by themselves, while I just sit back lazy / patiently waiting for them to do so.

12) If I want body and head, I don't reach for Carapils, which is worthless and might as well be treated as a very slightly caramelized pilsner malt. In the quantities you're using it, Carapils doesn't do a damn thing. Reach instead for RYE. Either the malt or the flakes. 10-15% of rye is going to give you body and head like nothing else you've ever tried. Oats are as worthless as Carapils. Wheat is someplace in between. And don't worry...

13) Rye is NOT spicy. We ain't making liquid pumpernickel bread with caraway seeds here (well unless you really are adding the seeds!). Rye is bready and earthy, and it adds a dull blue-gray haze to the beer in higher amounts. But in small amounts like 10-15%, you won't notice much except a little haze or sheen maybe. But NOT spicy, ugh... you know.... spiciness comes from HOPS though.

14) When reviewing Brulosophy experiment results, understand what it means. If they can't find a difference between 2 beers, maybe there's still a difference. If I assume that the tasters there are all morons, then I figure anything with a p value <0.20 there might actually be a difference, in which case more experiments would be needed to help find out. But nobody tells you this. And conversely, when they can't find a difference, for heavenssakes, don't assume there's no difference!! The experiments don't tell you that!! They can't!! They're only looking for when there probably IS a difference, not the other way around!! It's complicated, until you put extra brain power into it. So anyway....... I've compiled a list of much of their experiment results, to see which ones have a p value more like <0.20, so that I can find places where maybe we need to run a few more experiments. And I suggest that maybe you might like to do the same thing too. Cheers.

15) Protein rests ruin good beer. So do enzymes. So does too much lactose. Or salt. Or Sour Patch Kids or Froot Loops. Knock it off, peeps. Get off my lawn.

Okay, that's definitely enough for one day. Have fun getting annoyed.

Great list!

1-5 - Amen, brother.
6 - a good IPA is as good as a good bitter, hefe, saison, but I think the real problem is....
7 - ...your cats are messing with you. I’d get rid of the cats.
8 - 40 minute mashes and 85%+ is pretty damn dialed in. I can get 80% if I destroy my grains (BIAB) but never saw upper 80’s. I’d love to know your secret.
9 - I printed that out a few years ago and use it all the time. I refer to that more than Palmer, Mosher et. al. I’ve got a bunch of my own personal notes scribbled in the margins.
10 - Does it matter if Tinseth is right or wrong? It’s a benchmark, something to compare your taste buds to batch after batch. A guide for bittering consistency. If that makes any sense.
11 - +1
12 - Agree about CaraPils and Oats. I’m still trying to figure out the obsession with oats, though I don’t brew NEIPA’s. But I’d say wheat does more for head retention in my brew house than Rye. Could be the malt I use.
13 - +1 about the spice, though again, it could be the malt.
14 - +1
15 - what’s a “protein rest”?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I certainly did not say that Tinseth was wrong. I'm only saying that his work can not be validly applied to pellet hops. The reason for this is that a whole or leaf type hop requires 90 minutes whereby to impart essentially all of the IBU's it can impart to a given wort, but the same AA rating of pellet hops will accomplish this same task in ~40 minutes. And as the remaining boil time diminishes the 90/40 utilization disparity favoring the pellet hop continually increases in magnitude. Ballparking this, the IBU's imparted by whole or leaf over 20 minutes of remaining boil may be duplicated by pellets within only about 5 minutes of boiling. And you may achieve ballpark the same IBU's for pellets added at nigh on flame out as for whole/leaf added with 10 minutes remaining in the boil. The post boil addition IBU's from pellets must leave leaf in the dirt.

 

[Craigerrr]

1. Grain
2. Water
3. Heat
4. Hops
5. Yeast
6. Co2
7. Happiness

 

[Nosybear]

Interesting stuff... I'm sure that everyone here is posting what works for them. Before I throw away my pH meter, hydrometer, RO filter and brewing salts, before I revert to the procedures of the alewives, I'm going to need to see some peer-reviewed research. My brewing quirk is fastidious attention to detail. I know it's possible to brew beer without the science and if it works for you, I'm happy.

 

[Nosybear]

Interesting stuff... I'm sure that everyone here is posting what works for them. Before I throw away my pH meter, hydrometer, RO filter and brewing salts, before I revert to the procedures of the alewives, I'm going to need to see some peer-reviewed research. My brewing quirk is fastidious attention to detail. I know it's possible to brew beer without the science and if it works for you, I'm happy.

It doesn't work for me.

 

[Tim Bulin]

It doesn't work for me.

Is it more science or repeatability? I may not spend much time breaking down all the numbers, but I do my recipes exactly the same every time...grain bills, hop timing, ect. The times things have not went to plan were usually a result of me trying to compensate for a percieved problem that may not have actually been there.

 

[Bubba Wade]

1. Understand process scaling. Just because you need to brew using particular methods for a 500 gallon batch doesn’t mean you need to use the same techniques for a 5 gallon batch.
2. Municipal water supplies in the US are underrated.
3. Balance is the key to any good beer.
4. Just because you can ferment something doesn’t mean you should.
5. Fermentation temperature control is still underrated.
6. Mash circulation is overrated.
7. Clear wort can make clear beer. So can cloudy wort.
8. The best beer recipe is the one you like and can repeat.
9. When undecided, always brew a Belgian style.
10. And finally, remember the reason we make beer is because we like beer. No, we love beer. And that’s good enough.

 

[Josh Hughes]

Mine are
1. Overthink everything
2. Know that I don’t know enough to overthink
3. Plan for a week or for a brew day And change something minute daily
4. Brew closer to the original idea/recipe even when I changed all week
5. Get distraught when an small issue that doesn’t matter pops up such as being One minute late in adding whirfloc or adding a hop
6. Tell myself brewing is completely relaxing lol

 

[Bubba Wade]

5. Beer, not homebrew.

I do not make homebrew. This conjures up images of all sorts of vile concoctions.

I operate a non-commercial pilot-scale brewery and research center.

 

[Craigerrr]

I do not make homebrew. This conjures up images of all sorts of vile concoctions.

I operate a non-commercial pilot-scale brewery and research center.

Oh! I like this analogy!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I do not make homebrew. This conjures up images of all sorts of vile concoctions.

I operate a non-commercial pilot-scale brewery and research center.

Invite your friends over for a cold one and invite them to comment so you can officially certify your research as peer reviewed.

 

[Nosybear]

Invite your friends over for a cold one and invite them to comment so you can officially certify your research as peer reviewed.

Kind of like having your mother read your draft novel...