Beer stone in my fermenter

[Brewer #388373]

My fermenters (anvil stainless) have been building up with beer stone. Normal cleaning and sanitizer is not working and my beer is getting infected. Once I get them clean again I am looking for advice on water profile to eliminate the beer stone from forming. I had my water tested here is the make up. Any advice on additives? Add a RO? Add a water softener? Thanks in advance for any suggestions

 

[Bigbre04]

using a Nitric/Phosphoric acid cleaner will knock it out. You could also get some high percentage vinegar if the industrial chemicals are not your first choice, but it will take a lot more chemical and time to clean them.

When i run a CIP I spin caustic then acid, then a leave in sanitizer called PAA.

 

[The Brew Mentor]

You're likely building layers of organic and inorganic.
This will require alternating between high and low pH to break it down.
As @Bigbre04 stated above, running a caustic and then an acid works well.
You'll likely need to fill and soak your vessel to break it down.
Citric acid is cheap if you can't get professional cleaners.
You should be able to find sodium hydroxide for the caustic.
Please take all necessary precautions!
Brian

 

[Minbari]

You can also get "beer line cleaner" which is designed to clean beer stone

 

[Semper Sitientum]

Five Star also sells a product called B.S. Remover

 

[Bigbre04]

You're likely building layers of organic and inorganic.
This will require alternating between high and low pH to break it down.
As @Bigbre04 stated above, running a caustic and then an acid works well.
You'll likely need to fill and soak your vessel to break it down.
Citric acid is cheap if you can't get professional cleaners.
You should be able to find sodium hydroxide for the caustic.
Please take all necessary precautions!
Brian

citric acid is certainly safer then Nitric/Phos, but you would be missing out on that lovely passivation aroma lol, some of you will know what i am talking about.

Be careful with all chemicals, gloves and eye pro are paramount. Also be sure to rinse everything. Avoid chelated(powdered) chemicals when possible(use a respirator/goggles not googles.

Chemical basics:
-Proper chemical resistant gloves(latex is not gonna do anything) I use pvc coated "Black Knight" gloves. they are lined so they help with hot as well. Also not expensive. pro tip: roll the cuffs of the gloves about and inch outward and it will help prevent liquid rolling down your arm.
-Eye pro. wear them. I wear the ones that go over eye glasses(i dont wear glasses), because they dont fog up quite as quickly. you can wear goggles if you want but that isnt super necessary.
-always add chemical to water not the other way around...things get very spicy very quickly
-dont mix chemicals unless they are specifically designed to be mixed
-Ratios are important. strong chemical to get the intial clean/passivation done. for day to day cleaning i generally go for middle of the range and shoot for round numbers(easier).
-even diluted chemicals can hurt you. dried drips from chemical can eat stuff including you when they rehydrate
-rinse the chemical fully(unless its a leave in sani)

chemicals need respect not fear.

 

[Brewer #388373]

Appreciate the advice on cleaning, any thoughts on my water make to prevent it from happening again?

 

[Minbari]

Never had a beer stone problem. i usually wash out kettles, fermenter and keg with clean water, then run through with alkaline cleaners. last I sanitize with starsan (acid) so maybe that is why?

 

[Bigbre04]

Appreciate the advice on cleaning, any thoughts on my water make to prevent it from happening again?

I don't think that is how that works

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Charlie Bamforth has suggested in the past to add a source of calcium to all water used to brew as a means to prevent the formation of beer stone. I'm not sure I understand the chemistry behind it, but I started adding some calcium in the form of either calcium chloride or calcium sulfate in the mash and sparge and sometimes the boil.

I use mostly RO water and have been able to avoid beer stone for the most part. The other thing I do is acid clean fermenters and kegs before I notice any formation. I have gotten minor beer stone, but it took @ 2 years to notice it. I wash it with a milk stone remover @ 120F for 1/2 hour or longer. If you stay up on it, it won't get so bad so it becomes a real problem. Once you see it, it will resist even acid washes because it has become fairly thick. As the stone forms, it is a combination of proteins and calcium deposits, the calcium resist surfactants (detergents) and the proteins resist acids.

Good luck, beer stone can be very frustrating.

Edit: If you do get it, I have used the milk stone cleaner at full strength, I add a few ounces to the vessel and swirl it around every once in a while. I have left it in the keg/fermenters for several hours to remove it. The stainless steel was not harmed by the treatment.

 

[Minbari]

Charlie Bamforth has suggested in the past to add a source of calcium to all water used to brew as a means to prevent the formation of beer stone. I'm not sure I understand the chemistry behind it, but I started adding some calcium in the form of either calcium chloride or calcium sulfate in the mash and sparge and sometimes the boil.

I use mostly RO water and have been able to avoid beer stone for the most part. The other thing I do is acid clean fermenters and kegs before I notice any formation. I have gotten minor beer stone, but it took @ 2 years to notice it. I wash it with a milk stone remover @ 120F for 1/2 hour or longer. If you stay up on it, it won't get so bad so it becomes a real problem. Once you see it, it will resist even acid washes because it has become fairly thick. As the stone forms, it is a combination of proteins and calcium deposits, the calcium resist surfactants (detergents) and the proteins resist acids.

Good luck, beer stone can be very frustrating.

Edit: If you do get it, I have used the milk stone cleaner at full strength, I add a few ounces to the vessel and swirl it around every once in a while. I have left it in the keg/fermenters for several hours to remove it. The stainless steel was not harmed by the treatment.

Maybe there is some truth to it. i hasn't heard that before. But i also use RO water and add ca cl as well. in more than 5 years of brewing, fermenters don't have beer stone at all

 

[sikkingj]

You have been using PBW? I've found that PBW removes any/all beer stone from fermenters. If you have a stubborn case, let it soak in PBW for a day and maybe a good clean with a sponge or brush. Do you have a picture?

 

[Bigbre04]

Maybe there is some truth to it. i hasn't heard that before. But i also use RO water and add ca cl as well. in more than 5 years of brewing, fermenters don't have beer stone at all

I have never heard of adjusting your minerals to avoid stone build up. generally a quick acid rinse is sufficient to deal with stone. I would be more concerned about keeping my yeast happy/beer good and adding in an acid cycle to my cleaning.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

But i also use RO water and add ca cl as well. in more than 5 years of brewing, fermenters don't have beer stone at all

That has been my experience as well, although I do notice a small amount from time to time.

I've found that PBW removes any/all beer stone from fermenters

Phosphoric acid can help, but in more serious cases in lacks the ability to break down proteins. A combination of acids/detergents (surfactants) are needed in a heavier build up.

I would be more concerned about keeping my yeast happy/beer good and adding in an acid cycle to my cleaning.

The build up of beer stone can harbor bacteria that a routine cleaning doesn't touch. Yeah it sucks, but a occasional acid wash is good for beer and the stainless.

Here is a good article about beer stone if anyone is interested:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/r...10ANDvZSCAH0lgysDRSgRUfOJJvOyqPEAOfuhr_2ln4Rr

 

[Bigbre04]

That has been my experience as well, although I do notice a small amount from time to time.

Phosphoric acid can help, but in more serious cases in lacks the ability to break down proteins. A combination of acids/detergents (surfactants) are needed in a heavier build up.

The build up of beer stone can harbor bacteria that a routine cleaning doesn't touch. Yeah it sucks, but a occasional acid wash is good for beer and the stainless.

Here is a good article about beer stone if anyone is interested:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/r...10ANDvZSCAH0lgysDRSgRUfOJJvOyqPEAOfuhr_2ln4Rr

PBW is great, but it is really not a strong cleaner. you rarely see it on the bigger side of things for cleaning mission critical equipment. I keep some around the house same with star san. both are safe and friendly for household use. I often also have a bottle of 50% sodium hydroxide under my sink....so take my advice with a grain of salt lol.

 

[Minbari]

I don't think pbw does anything for beer stone. alkaline products cause it, and pbw is very alkaline

 

[Donoroto]

-Eye pro. wear them. I wear the ones that go over eye glasses(i dont wear glasses), because they dont fog up quite as quickly. you can wear goggles if you want but that isnt super necessary.

Ideally one should use “splash goggles” and not merely impact-protection glasses. Losing your sight will cause years of regret.

 

[Tom O]

I have a Grainfather ss fermenter. Once or twice a year I clean any build-up (mainly just a slight residue) then use Starsan to "passivate". 30 min keeping ss wet with Starsan then letting air dry overnight. Forms a protective barrier that last 6 - 12 months for me. I brew one or twice a month.
I got the idea from an online educational session from AHA. I saw it live, but I think they have past sessions online if you're a member.

 

[AutoDog]

As others have mentioned, alkaline cleaners will remove soil but not beerstone. Acidic cleaners remove beerstone but not soil. Both are needed (albeit acidic cleaning is less frequent).

Strongly recommend you check out SAFECID. Unlike PBW, it is professional-level strength. It also won't melt your skin and eyes like some other acid rinse products. They have both alkaline and acidic cleaners.

 

[Tom O]

I have a Grainfather ss fermenter. Once or twice a year I clean any build-up (mainly just a slight residue) then use Starsan to "passivate". 30 min keeping ss wet with Starsan then letting air dry overnight. Forms a protective barrier that last 6 - 12 months for me. I brew one or twice a month.
I got the idea from an online educational session from AHA. I saw it live, but I think they have past sessions online if you're a member.

Here's a link to the recorded webinar if you are interested: https://www.crowdcast.io/c/passivation